Speaker 1 (00:00:00) - Welcome to I Love It Here, a place where we discuss and share our thoughts on various topics, all focused on making life and work a better experience for everyone.

Caleb (00:00:25) - Hello and welcome to another episode of I Love It Here with your host today myself, Caleb Foster and Paul Westlake, and taking some time out with his family. Jonathan Cooper couldn't be with us. So yeah.

Paul (00:00:40) - Thoughts with you. Jonathan says Jonathan is doing some family things at the moment, but yeah, so you've got myself and Caleb. So you know, I'm sure for those of you who are waiting for Jonathan to come back, he's got tons of things to update you with. We're still questioning who's going to do the ending, but we'll worry about that when we get there, I think. So how you been, Caleb? What you been up to?

Caleb (00:00:59) - Oh. All good. I'll tell you what I am pleased about is being back in the man lair. It's.

Paul (00:01:09) - You've got the floor down.

Caleb (00:01:11) - Floors down walls. A decorated man tats back on the wall.

Caleb (00:01:18) - You know, up and down. I even got a new chair the other day. And ergonomic chair. And what? So what attracted me was not an ergonomic chair. It was the fact that it leaned forward. So when I stand up at the desk, it slides nicely.

Paul (00:01:33) - Oh, nice.

Caleb (00:01:35) - So rather than pull it out and have it laying around the place. It's under the desk.

Paul (00:01:40) - You sure you're not sitting on one? Jim balls. I worked in an office once where it was they had standing desks and rather than chairs, they were like those. Those sit on Jim Balls. I never got comfortable on that one. Literally never got comfortable on that. But it was the weirdest thing. Well, every time you stood up, I think rolled off. And I think that was part of get fit thing, you'd have to sort of chase it across the office and bring it back. But everything you mentioned been working for.

Caleb (00:02:01) - Trying to use your mouse on the ball.

Paul (00:02:03) - Yeah. Well yeah yeah yeah yeah, quite.

Paul (00:02:07) - There you go. I'm back to a mouse. I've. I talked about my mouse.

Caleb (00:02:10) - No. Oh. You had a big thing that I don't know.

Paul (00:02:15) - No, no I've, I've, I've tried, I tried a mouse with, with a ball on the thumb and didn't get on with it at all. And then I had some weird RSI thing with my wrist, and it turned out I was reading about it and it was because it was the mouse was flat. So you better off going to a handshake rather than flat, if that makes sense, because flat isn't really how we're designed to work. So the handshake. So my mouse now I'm going to show it to the screen. There you go. So my mouse is a vertical mouse.

Caleb (00:02:42) - Oh yeah. Yeah.

Paul (00:02:43) - Which looks kind of weird. But it's still got like buttons and scrolling things and stuff feels weird. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So it's like a vertical still move it the same way as you do, but I digress. That was thrilling for anybody who listened to it.

Paul (00:03:00) - Well.

Caleb (00:03:01) - After after say I tried the I've had various conversations, you know, the, the things that you get on a. Say that again.

Paul (00:03:11) - Trackpad.

Caleb (00:03:13) - Yeah. The trackpad that you get that, you get Apple. Well I add one of them like they're not cheap are they. And another one of them, I just couldn't get on with it. And yet somebody else that I speak to because I just can't use one of those mouse. I have to use a trackpad all the time.

Paul (00:03:29) - Yeah. So the Magic Magic Trackpad, and ironically, I was talking to someone very similar conversation because I was telling about my mouse and I said, I use a trackpad for ages and it just wasn't accurate enough. I couldn't get on with it. So I went to this mouse and he said, oh, you've got it in the wrong place. You want a trackpad on the left hand side of the keyboard. So what do you mean? He said, well, I have both. He has his trackpad in his left hand side, the keyboard mouse on the right hand side.

Paul (00:03:52) - He's right handed. You'd be the other way around. Um, I said, what would you use it for? He goes, well, you've got to swipe gestures, you've got to pinch gestures. You've got all that stuff that I still can still do. Using that by using the mouse for everything else. I thought a bit weird. We may come to this later, Caleb, because I was going to talk to you about some Christmas ideas and Black Friday at the time of recording Black Friday week has just happened and we're in Cyber Monday, so I'm sure you've been hammering the credit card and Amazon deliveries are coming on on the hour.

Caleb (00:04:22) - But welcome to This Week in Tech Then podcast.

Paul (00:04:29) - What's this got to hey, do you know what it has got something to do with? I'm loving it here because I have improved my productivity by one of the purchases I made on Black Friday. There you go. It's made my life easier.

Caleb (00:04:40) - Well, why? Before we get into that, why don't we talk about what's making this great for this month or week?

Paul (00:04:51) - Yeah.

Paul (00:04:52) - You know what? God, this this sounds so indulgent. But we were fortunate that you and I were fortunate enough to be at the Lone Tech Awards. Was that last week? The week before? It would have been a week before, wouldn't it? Yeah. Um, and so for those who aren't in the know, Caleb and I are fortunate enough to be on judging panels, different categories. It's fair to say we never judge together. Yet I wish anybody luck if we do judge together. But anyway, um, so we're on different categories, but one of the so obviously we have to give up our time and we judge a load of entries. But one of the upsides to all of that is then once all of that stuff's done, we're fortunate enough to go to a lovely gala dinner and have a nice meal and chat to lots of other like minded people. So my gratitude, believe it or not, is again an opportunity for my tux to come out, to meet up with you, to have a beer and to to chat to people in the industry and come away with the idea of there's still fresh new ideas out there.

Paul (00:05:53) - So yeah, that one for me, that's that's the first one I've got to. And the second one, um, my wife booked something for last week. This was last Wednesday. She said, oh, we're we're off out in this evening. So where are we going? She said, if I tell you you'll roll your eyes and go, why would you want to go there? But anyway, we went to um, it's called Warwick Arts Center, but ironically it's in it's in Coventry. But anyway, I think it's at Coventry University. Um, and we went to see Reverend Richard Coles An Evening with Reverend Richard Coles. Now, it was the best show up in into for a long, long time. You know, you talk to someone, you think you are genuinely fascinating bloke. So for those I'm thinking Richard Coles, that name rings a bell. You might have seen him on strictly and I didn't know him from that at all. I knew him as being the keyboard player in The Communards, which he was talking about, and then went on to become a reverend in Finden, which is in Northampton.

Paul (00:06:51) - Um, and just, you know, when someone's lived and he could stand on the stage for two hours and it's anecdote after anecdote after anecdote, it was just fantastic, really, really loved it. So I think I'm grateful for my wife thinking, you know what, if I ask you about it, you'll go, why do we want to go there? But just booking it and doing it, and it was really, really good and honestly, it was so, so good, I loved it. What about yourself?

Caleb (00:07:16) - Well.

Paul (00:07:17) - I'll come back on that now.

Caleb (00:07:18) - You've just reminded me of a few things actually, so. Oh my God, I, we went karting the other week actually. Oh, just just doing something like just because you want to and. I sort of booked it. And just as a sort of a team night. And they do a standard, they do two 15 minute like session. Yeah. And we're looking at 15 15 minute sessions. That's not going to be long at all.

Caleb (00:07:51) - That's how I phoned up and I said, is there any chance that I could book two, two, 15 minute sessions? And I said, yeah, you can do. But it's probably not the best way to do it. And while I was on the phone to her, I saw that there was a special deal for three, 15 minutes. I said. I'm really sorry to waste your time. I think I've found a solution there. And so ended up booking the three 15 minutes for the price of two on the night. Ten minutes in my arms.

Paul (00:08:21) - Your forearms must have been pumped.

Caleb (00:08:23) - Oh, my God, they were killing. And then I was glad of the risk. So you do 15 minutes on, 15 minutes off. So next 15 minutes. I needed the break. I was ready for this second 15 minutes. Ten minutes after that. Oh my God, my arms are killing me.

Paul (00:08:40) - Yeah. And physically off work.

Caleb (00:08:41) - It works. Your core, your forearms and your waist.

Caleb (00:08:45) - Staring. And like the guys that come quite a lot younger than me. And I said, thank God I didn't book the two two sessions because I either tapped out after that third one. They said, yeah, we're the same. But it was so enjoyable. But so I love just like booking something that, you know, most people get. I'm not sure about that. But yeah, whatever we did it, got on with it and and the learn tech as well. I'm with you I like it was it's great to get together. But I have to say I observe the hospitality that's going on as well. And and the team there just couldn't do enough really for us. I mean, someone said to me, you've been a pain in the bum again because I just like they did this vegan chocolate brownie. I wanted another one and they couldn't help. And I was sitting next to me. They couldn't help enough. They didn't have a spare one, but they went out of their way to give me a plate of fruit and stuff, which they didn't have to know, but it was just a positivity that they did it with really.

Caleb (00:09:46) - So I sort of reflect on that.

Paul (00:09:48) - Do you know what? You're absolutely spot on. And when you think there must have been, oh, minimum 50 tables, I reckon there was possibly even 6010 people on each table. No one was waiting. And not only that, not only was it efficient, but to your point, the staff were lovely. You know, you just think you're just. Yeah, really, really nicely done. Yeah. Really enjoyed that.

Caleb (00:10:11) - So it was a good giggle.

Paul (00:10:13) - Yeah I like the awards which which can tend to drag on a little bit. But you know what. Fair play to the house for keeping us. Blimey. It's when I looked at it and thought is there really 60, 66 awards? They said. And I thought, no way.

Caleb (00:10:26) - No, there were 66 shortlisted.

Paul (00:10:29) - Right. Okay. Well I thought when you hear 66 awards, people think, oh my God, they're going to be there for hours. But of course there's bronze, silver and gold in each category, right? So really is what 22 categories.

Paul (00:10:39) - But you know it I think the only, the only thing that I would like to change if I could was um. Restricting the amount of letters you can use in your entry name, because an entry name, it's a bit like imagine a headline for anybody who hasn't been imagine the headline of a book or even a podcast. It's pocket. I love it here or I, I as we know it, and it's pithy and it's short and all the rest of it. It's not a paragraph. Right. So it is sort of the headline. And then let me explain it for some of these entries. We're like, oh my goodness. You just literally explained everything. It's like, yes, it's it's Westie and Caleb working with this company and this company. And what we've done is you think, no, no, this isn't the entry. This is literally that I sound like I'm on a soapbox, but honestly, all I would say was on some of them, they literally had to change the font to fit it on the screen.

Paul (00:11:30) - Right? When that tells you all we need to know anyway, fair play to the people presenting it who held all that together. And as you say, like all of these things, it's a networking event, isn't it? Talking to people afterwards, what you've been working on, you know, some people, everyone's just happy to be there and everyone thinks their entry is award winning. Because you know what? It's definitely made a bit change their business. So I know it sounds corny, but just being there is is a huge thing for those businesses.

Caleb (00:12:00) - You know, I kept reflecting. This has been a reoccurring theme with our podcasts, and also the direction of travel for me over the last few years is that there's so many companies in the digital learning space now, but if you would, if you're in that space, it's really easy to get tied up in the detail and try and keep chasing what's the next big innovation and get upset that somebody is, you know, got something ahead of you or you're not, you know, working with with enough customers or whatever it may be.

Caleb (00:12:36) - Right. But I kept reflecting on or watching people going and collecting their word help, first of all, how proud they are. And so it's really easy to lose sight of where organizations are and the impact they've made. And it doesn't matter if they're doing stuff that you might have done ten years ago, to them, that's massive deal. And they might have made a massive impact. So I think first and foremost, not to judge where people are, but secondary like if you're if you've defined your purpose and you really believe in that, then all that sort of competitive angst goes away and it's just about the benefit of your clients and the benefit of the industry, really. And I know that sounds quite sort of utopian, but, you know, you don't get hung up on why they got that, then ours is better than theirs or or vice versa. You just go, fantastic. You know, we know that we're doing the right thing and it keeps us motivated.

Paul (00:13:36) - Do you know what? It's as you were saying that it ties in so nicely.

Paul (00:13:41) - I was reading some an article this week. I was delivering a session on growth mindset versus fixed mindset, and I'd like to do a bit of background reading around some of this stuff. And I came across a really interesting article, Carol Dweck. Her name is that the person who started she's a psychologist and her term is all about the power of yet. So it's basically encapsulating that idea that, you know, you will improve. You're just not there yet. And and when we're judging these awards, some people go, well, why didn't I win? And yeah, but that doesn't mean if you entered this next year when you've got more data and more of this that you just haven't got there, and it's that word that keeps coming up, you know, it's it's swapping. You're not good at this with you can do it or you're not quite there yet. But what you've done really well so far is this, this, this and this. And I think we almost have a bit of a role as a judge to say it's not that they're better than you.

Paul (00:14:36) - They just might be further along the road than you are at this point. And I know that there are winners, but I know it sounds again, corny. There aren't necessarily losers, you know, it is that what can we do? And it's basically embracing that mindset, isn't it, that empowers individuals to sort of bounce back and sort of say, okay, cool, but what could we do differently rather than going away? Oh, that's a shame innit? We only spoke to someone. I went, yeah it's nice but it's only a bronze. And you think. But there were 26 people in this category, you got down to the last ten. And by the way you're one of the top three. So if you looked at if you, if you looked at in a different way, it's like, okay, you know, we're not gold yet, but you are. So you know what I mean? I think people sometimes need to be reminded that. It's what's right for you. And I'd love to get your take on that whole power of yet, because I think that's a really nice thing that a lot of us could pick up on and say, you know, how can we change the language? And even if it is me standing trying to learn a new language on Duolingo standing in front of it, and this is really hard.

Paul (00:15:39) - But you know what? I know a lot more than I knew two weeks ago. I know a lot more than I know two months ago, so I'm getting there.

Caleb (00:15:46) - I. Well, I think there's, you know. It suggests it is all about a mindset and it believing that you haven't got there yet because. And that's the first step, just to open your mind a little bit, that you know that you're capable of doing it, because the word in itself is only as powerful as your desire to want to, you know, sort of step forward and learn or unlearn and relearn. But. I. I think there's so much that goes on around that as well in there, because if you surround yourself with lots of people that are of that open mindset. Then you're likely to absorb that thought process as well. If you surround yourself with people that are of a close mindset and go on sticking your, you know, how many, how many times have you heard someone say, stick in your lane? Or, you know, play at what you're good at and like, why like, you know, and and I just think, you know, surround yourself with those positive people and, you know, keep those people at arm's length that that are sort of, you know, mood hoovers or whatever it is.

Caleb (00:17:00) - I think that's one of the big steps.

Paul (00:17:02) - And to a certain extent, it's also. I'd say taken the personality out of it. And what I mean by that is if something hasn't gone right, that's not because. I'm a particularly bad person at this, or I'm a failure. I'm never going to have the skills to do it. It's because what I've tried so far hasn't necessarily worked. So I know that sounds very similar, but it's not. It's taking rather than saying I'm the problem, it's. I haven't found the right solution. Again, that word comes up again yet. And I think because as leaders, we can. It's a good thing for us to pick up as a leader to be able to say, okay, cool. Yeah, but you have gone from here to here to here. Okay. What do we do now to make you move from here to here to here? So, you know.

Caleb (00:17:47) - Well, I think that, you know, the other thing is that what you're saying is around what Dan Sullivan calls that the gap.

Caleb (00:17:56) - And again, so it's easy to to sit in that gap. So you reflect on the stuff that you haven't done. Whereas actually if you really look at it, you've made so much gain. But people tend to look at the gap rather than the gain. And that that's a similar sort of mindset as well. You know, if you've already, if you've done the measurement to go, yeah, but look at the look at the strides that you've made, you know, and keep a note of that. And we've said that for ages. You know, just document stuff that you've done because you'll reflect on that and go, oh my God, I've done so much actually, that I've lost sight of of that. But all I'm doing is measuring. I haven't got to where I thought I was going to be originally.

Paul (00:18:35) - Yeah. What part do. Managers. Stroke leaders have to encourage that because because obviously they've set a measure at the start, right? And they've said, this is where I expect you to.

Paul (00:18:50) - It's often to not see that as a failure at that point.

Caleb (00:18:54) - I think that's a journey. I think that's the first thing, isn't it, that that's a direction of travel rather than a finite, you know, end. I think that would be you know, you've always, I suppose, you know, in corporate organizations you're always going to have goals and, you know, stretch goals. And I think there a direction of travel. And it's measuring. You know, measuring the steps on that journey that you've made and the impact that you've made on a broader organization. But, you know, the openness like, oh my God, it goes back to everything around, you know, creating a safe space, enabling people to to, you know, there be a perceived failure or an alternative pathway being open to discuss those alternatives, because I think, you know, all of the all of the negative traits go hand in hand. So where you've got closed, closed mind to go, oh, this is what it should look like.

Caleb (00:19:55) - And I'm not going to entertain anything different. I'm going to give you negative feedback that says you haven't achieved that which is measuring the gap. I mean, you know, all of that is is quite toxic, you know, and and therefore doesn't motivate people where, where you've then got an open mind to go. Right. This is a purpose. This is direction of travel. This is your piece in that. And you know, you understand your role in achieving that purpose. Then actually we know that, you know a journey isn't isn't a straight line. A journey is wonky. It's all over the place and you get knocked back some, you know, you know, just things don't go to plan. But that's life, isn't it? Yeah. And but I think as a leader or a manager then it's then supporting people's. To get through that because. Look, you've already fighting the pressure that you create yourself. So if you're a high performing individual, you set your own expectations of what great look like, and you self-critique that really quite heavily.

Caleb (00:20:59) - You don't need another layer of that to go, yeah, you're really bad at what you're. Yeah, I know I just said that. I know.

Paul (00:21:06) - That myself.

Speaker 4 (00:21:07) - So. Yeah.

Caleb (00:21:10) - Oh, it's about Christmas presents. It's about supporting that person on that journey and encourage them to go, yeah, don't don't beat yourself up about it. But, you know, we're all here doing the same thing.

Paul (00:21:24) - You're absolutely right. Without giving away too much and just finishing off the conversation about the awards. I've I've had two chats with two of the award winners so far. In fact, I've got one of them coming on one of the podcasts later on this week. She's from I was.

Caleb (00:21:42) - Thinking it could be a little side side hustle there with all the entrance over the next 12 months, actually.

Paul (00:21:49) - Oh, absolutely. Yeah, honestly. And they've all got a story to tell, which is lovely, but one of them is from one of the NHS trusts, and she's coming on to talk to me about that.

Paul (00:21:58) - And we just had a real, real nice chat about, you know, firstly as a judge, I, I know people think, oh, it's all right for you. You've got, you know, you just sit there and judge and you get a nice dinner and all of this, which is. Yes, absolutely. We do however. It is also an opportunity for us to go over to those award winners and say, great to see you tonight. You know, congratulations. This is why I want to know why they were award winning or where they missed out, whichever way you look at it. And she said, oh, can we can we jump on a course? Absolutely. So I jumped on jumped on a call with her and she said, and it's bye bye love. She said, we're so shocked. I said, she said, we didn't even think we'd get shortlisted, let alone pick up the silver Award. And I said, just, just out of interest. Why do you think that? And she said, well, we looked at all of the other businesses and they're all very established.

Paul (00:22:50) - They've probably got way bigger budgets than we have. I mean, this is obviously public sector NHS. They've got way bigger budgets, I'm sure I've got and we just thought, yeah, we're complete frauds being here. And I said, but it was a really nice conversation. I said, you know what? Bizarrely, that's what made you award winning because you used you cut your cloth accordingly. You knew what you know. You the hoops they have to jump through the red tape. They have to cut to get anything put through. You know, there aren't answerable for every penny because ultimately it's public money. It's mine and yours. And I said, but what you did with that, and the way you've done that and the changes that's made, that's what was award winning. I said, we're not judging it on how much profit you've made and how much money you've made. We've made it on judging, in my case, in the category I was judging anyway. I said, you can't see it like that.

Paul (00:23:38) - She said, I wish someone had had that conversation with us when we were coming and hiring about whether to enter this or not, and I said, you can't, you can't look at it like that. And then she also said, and this was the absolute kicker for me. She said, you know what? We've got so many plans because this could be gold winning next time, couldn't it? And I thought, there you go. And it was the whole the conversation came up went, yep, you're not there yet. But what's next. So it really nice.

Caleb (00:24:01) - Well and it's all about impact doesn't it? It doesn't matter whether you've spend a penny or a, you know, under a grand. It's about the impact you've made on people's lives and the organisation. And so, you know, we've say that all the time with. You know, clients that are trying to get to a a perceived sort of goal. You know, they're always predetermined. They want a piece of e-learning and it's got to be all fancy.

Caleb (00:24:27) - You go, well, what? You know, what's the messaging or what's the desired, you know, feeling or emotion that you're trying to drive. And actually a short video might achieve this aim, a PDF might achieve the same. So it's not all about spending big bucks all the time. It's about the impact that's made on people's, you know, feelings, emotions. You know, how they've changed some ink.

Paul (00:24:49) - And, you know, I think I think you're right. I'd go even b even go further than that and say, in our industry, there's a perception that the more you spend, the longer the piece of learning is and you're shaking your head. I could see already, but it is. There's always and we don't help that, by the way, because as we've discussed before, the fact that anybody still prices e-learning by the hour is absolutely bonkers, right? Because that implies that if you have two hours, then you've got even better. It doesn't just doesn't work that way.

Paul (00:25:19) - But you know, you're right. It's it's coming back to that question of what you actually want it to do. And if a two minute animation will do that, why is that any less valuable than two hours worth of learning? And I guess you know this, but a lot of that has to do with that's the perception of we've forgotten two minutes of learning. The perception is it can't be that important. Whereas if we make them sit down for two hours and do something that's really dull and give them all of the facts they might ever need, then the perception is really important. I mean, it's just completely the wrong way round.

Caleb (00:25:52) - Don't think that way.

Paul (00:25:55) - So tell me about we. I don't know how much detail, but you were fortunate enough to have a one of the cool things to judge, which was game use of gaming I think was was it gaming or interactive? I can't remember which one you had. So what made your award? Award winning? What did they do differently? Why were there people loving it?

Caleb (00:26:15) - Um, it was all.

Caleb (00:26:16) - Down to the impact, actually. And that was, um, you know, Kane came across really clear, actually, in the presentation where there were two young students on the call. So effectively the end user of of the learning. Um, that were just so articulate about, you know, what they'd got out of it and the benefit it had to them and and meeting the original brief, actually. So the brief was to, um, increase interest and engagement in civil engineering. And the people, the end users that did this training were like, yeah, we're all over this. We love it. You know, it's, you know, and I'm paraphrasing there because we had quite a long conversation with them. But, you know, that was. That was loud and clear, really, that they'd defined what the objectives were. They'd hit the brief, really clear. The feedback was there. And, you know, qualitative and quantitative.

Paul (00:27:30) - With that qualitative. How often do people think I've interrupted you there? But you're absolutely right.

Paul (00:27:37) - Just just how often do people think. When they do award entries that all they need is lots of qualitative data. We get it all the time. It's like 10,000 people have done it. And this, this amount of people. Okay. But what did you think of oh you know, what do they have to do it. Oh yeah. It's compliance. You think. Well we never even chosen to. So. So you're right.

Caleb (00:27:57) - For me that's not impact though, is it. You know. No. Absolutely. They've completed it. That's not impact. The impact is what. What's the difference that it's made. So what's you know what's the the piece in the middle. The performance gap that you're striving to fail really to go. This is where we think there's a need and this is how we addressed it and our view address and yes okay. So and you need both don't you. You need, you know, quantitative data to, you know, to go, wow. So it wasn't just one person that in the impact it could have been, you know, ten, 100, 1000, 10,000.

Caleb (00:28:37) - But you know, so you need both really.

Paul (00:28:40) - Absolutely.

Caleb (00:28:47) - Shall. I'll tell you about my gratitude.

Paul (00:28:50) - Yeah. Sorry. You haven't, have you? No. God, did I do mine and open up a huge can of worms? Yeah, well, you sort of did, because you said you do. Yeah. Go into your gratitude then.

Caleb (00:29:00) - I, I've so I think I said this last year actually. But when you have all these conversations so Christmas always catches you out. Right. So at the same time every bloody year it's on the same day every year. Yeah. Everyone's when you say you ready for Christmas. Oh no. No. And everyone's chasing their tail. Um. And I was like that last week actually. And then this week I've got my arse in gear. And as I said last year, I actually really enjoy Christmas. Not because of all the big event and stuff, but actually thinking about the people that mean something to me and thinking about what would be a great gift for them.

Caleb (00:29:43) - You know what? So the little nuggets, the conversations that we've had over the last 12 months and keep a little note of those, and what do I think would resonate with that person. And and actually buying something that means they go, oh wow, man, I didn't realise.

Paul (00:30:01) - That's such a lovely idea. I'm thinking we've got one, probably one more show before a year end. And I think then what we'll do is talk about planning forward and to a certain extent, reflection. But what a lovely idea to set up a blank apple reminders, whatever it may be for each. And then as things come up across a year, whether it's going to or something that person said or just what? Yeah, what a lovely can be without they might listen to this colour. Be careful. Give me an example.

Caleb (00:30:33) - Um.

Caleb (00:30:35) - Well, it's just so I'll pick up on the little events that people have done, you know, and that might be a teams call, WhatsApp, a phone call. And someone said, oh, I've done this and I really like it.

Caleb (00:30:49) - Or um, they've, you know, you've noticed something in the background that is their personality or just like I suppose in short, it's listening to people and and go and like, I've got one now and it just says Christmas on there and a list of people's names. And then you just go make a note of it. And I'm, I have conversation in January, but and I'll make a note of that. But come November that thing might change because people change their minds, don't they. Flip through the air and but it's something so you don't just come to November, December and go, oh shit, I've got to buy presents. It's ah, I'm going to get these things. Because, you know, I know that you're going to like them.

Paul (00:31:37) - I don't know, I think we've may have mentioned it way back when, it may not have been on a pod, but one of the things that I tend to do, I'm giving away all my little secrets here could be differently after this.

Paul (00:31:51) - So, you know, if you look at the contacts app. So I'm an Apple user, so I use contacts wherever. Um, but in in the contacts that you get a notes field for everyone. And if you, you know, when I started at Cuyo, which would have been what God. If. Eight years ago. Maybe something like that. Anyway, one of the first things I did was it was obviously as you meet people, put them in the contacts app. Yep. No problem. But it's the notes field that's important. So there was a couple of people in like the bid team that basically I used to have to work quite closely with. And you just pick up things so they'll go, oh, you let me cup of tea and you just hear say Liz, go, oh yeah, my usual cappuccino. Thanks. And you think right, okay. Straight into the notes that Liz cappuccino. You know, and I know it sounds like that sounds like a really, you know, trite thing, but.

Paul (00:32:43) - And I'll be honest with you, I did exactly the same to you. When you and I first met, there was a couple of things you would have said. So obviously you got your background. So in your notes, it'll probably say something like X, chef. It'll say it'll have Amanda written in there. Think okay. Wife's name. There you go. Kids names, whatever. It's just those little things that make it look like I'm on. I am listening, obviously. Okay. God, that sounded terrible. No, but how? It was so nice to be able to when you're trying to, you're not trying to fit in, but when you're trying to sort of build up that rapport with people, just go over to the bid team and go, you're I'm just going to go make coffee. Cappuccinos. Yeah. Alec. Milk, no sugar still, you know, and then like, bloody hell he listens and you think, well no I don't. But I've got technology that helps me with this stuff.

Paul (00:33:25) - So I think that sort of stuff is really quite important to help. It makes you look like you actually. Oh, God. I'll just say make sure you look like you care, because I do. But, you know, I'll dig me out of this whole of. For God's.

Caleb (00:33:37) - Sake. Right. It's got to be genuine and and you really have got to listen to people rather than pretending to listen to him making a note of it.

Paul (00:33:46) - No. Absolutely not. I need to be able to remember it. And and, you know, it's got this is terrible on it because when I meet up, how's Amanda, you know, have you never question why I always pick up my phone just before I ask? Like, no, absolutely not. You know, it's when you're getting to know something, it's actually quite nice. It's actually quite a nice thing. Or like you say, you're on a client call and off the top of my head they may say, yeah, fine. Well, I'll look at it week after next.

Paul (00:34:12) - So I'm on holiday next week. Oh, where are you off to? Oh, Santorini. Okay, cool. Week after next. When you're talking to them, say, oh, how was the holiday? You know, just it's that that those connections that. Yeah. Does it make you stand out. It's probably more impactful than someone goes. Yeah. Well how are you? So anyway.

Caleb (00:34:31) - Well, I do know I sort of, um. I've got a live case, actually, that we're, you know, we're working with, with a specific client, and we had a catch up and our catch ups are really quite informal. And the feedback that they. You know give to us is we just. We love the way that you in the loose as a terms project manager, because it's more about client relationships and just building relationships. And so every week that's meant to be a formal status update. It's more like a checking in a chat, you know, it's a coffee and chat.

Caleb (00:35:10) - And I mean, and that's, you know, that's how I prefer to operate, actually, you understand people at the heart of it and you're on a journey with them. So you're both invested in this. And so that means you listen to them, you care about them and you care about the outcome. And I think that's the important thing that they feel you care rather than you're going through a process to go, oh, we need to, you know, we need to retain this client.

Paul (00:35:38) - Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. And I would all I would add to that, I'm not questioning that at all. But what I would add to that is it you've got to be authentic and you've got to be genuine with that. And if I give you an example, the amount of times I've gone on to calls and the first, the first agenda point almost is how was everyone's weekend kind of how was your weekend? How was your weekend? All right. Do you think you're not even listening to my answers? You know, in some ways I'd rather you don't.

Paul (00:36:05) - Don't ask. Because if you ask because you think it's the right thing to do. I was having a very similar conversation with my wife and one of our walks last week, and she said, you said, oh, she's an HR manager, right? So she chats to me all the time, and I'm sure you know that because probably in your contacts anyway. So as she was saying, you know, one of her bosses was saying, but you're really good at that stuff. You really understand people. How can I be better? She goes, just show a genuinely show an interest in these people, you know, just ask them about things. And he went, oh, got it, got it, got it. And she said it was cringe because the following meeting, you know personally. Hello. How was your weekend. Fine. Great. Well what I need you for is and you think well, they haven't even finished a sentence, you know, she said it was just weird because you can't you can't switch that stuff on and off.

Paul (00:36:52) - You know what I mean? It needs to evolve over time.

Caleb (00:36:56) - I think there's two things for me that stand out is listen and care. I mean, you or you could sum that by lesson and give a shit, you know, it's but it comes down to that, doesn't it? So if you want to care about stuff, then give a shit about stuff. You know, it's as simple as that, really. And the only reason you wouldn't give a shit is because, like, you're not connected with that person, that project, that business, I mean. I think that's where startups and smaller organizations have a drop on some of the larger ones, because the bigger an organization, you know, unless you really get the right people with that level of emotional, um, I wouldn't say emotional intelligence, but emotional connection, then you sort of lose sight of that. I'm really close to you and this project and stuff because it's just another one, actually. And I mean, that's that's where, you know, we are at the minute.

Caleb (00:37:56) - I like to say that that's part of our DNA, actually, that it doesn't matter whether we got ten projects, 2000, you know, it's like that's the DNA of of how we behave, how we look after clients.

Paul (00:38:07) - Yeah. And, you know, it was made even worse because the person he asked was like, fine, thanks. That was yours. He he's like, all right, nice and smooth.

Caleb (00:38:17) - No, you don't need to.

Paul (00:38:18) - Well, it wasn't that. It's just then afterwards, Craig gets his phone call. What was that all about? What have I done wrong? She said, what do you mean he just been. He went, yeah, but he's never like that. Which. And there's part of your problem, right? Because it doesn't sound authentic. It did sound like it was. Why? Why is he being like that? What does he want? And people starting reading things into it to.

Caleb (00:38:37) - Make a first impression. And if that's a detached from all emotional sensitivity, then you're going to struggle to claim that back again.

Paul (00:38:46) - Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah. Exactly. But this is you know, this is like these we've talked about this before, these companies that have this. Everybody here has got to be psychologically safe because that's what we're all about to do that and okay, fine. And the first time I asked you a question you follow up with, but why would you think like that? Well, you've kind of lost me already. Just lose the word. I read a lovely acronym the other day. Caleb, you're really like this. It was fear and it said fear. Forget everything and run. Or is it face everything and rise I love that.

Caleb (00:39:25) - Well, yeah.

Caleb (00:39:27) - I'm sure there'll be a camp that will use either all but a lot of large organizations and do the former. Yeah. I think there seems to be my my underlying story there that the big organizations don't seem to be able to adapt very well, and the smaller ones just sort of stand up and, and want to be counted. But, you know, that's just my bias kicking in.

Paul (00:39:57) - 40 minutes in. Where did that.

Caleb (00:39:58) - Go? Well. And that's that's what I was going to sort of round off, actually. So I'm staring at a piece of wallpaper that looks like it's coming off a wall that says, now you've just.

Paul (00:40:08) - Finished that office, it don't need to redecorate again.

Caleb (00:40:11) - I know, I know, but I keep looking at it and thinking, something's not right up there and I need to investigate that. Oh, that sounds.

Paul (00:40:17) - Like don't stop reading. Is it damp? Is it? What's it you need your soffits doing? It's all going horribly wrong.

Caleb (00:40:23) - I wanted to I want to know what's on your playlist at the minute. Well.

Paul (00:40:28) - I'll come to my playlist in a second. But before I do that, which is slightly, I say on my playlist, it's it ties into your idea of gifting and also ties into our idea of Black Friday. So I've been making a list. People keep saying, well, what shall I buy this person? They've got everything they want, what shall I do? So I might.

Paul (00:40:49) - And by the way, this is only like 5 or 6 things long. And also I'm not going to be totally unrealistic and say what they really want is a M3 ultra MacBook Pro, right? Okay. Because they're out of reach for a lot of people. I absolutely get that. So two things. So number one is our good old go to the day one app or some form of journaling. So that could be a book. I was listening to a lovely podcast the other day, and he says he tries to end his day on analog, so he basically tracks everything in day one. But at the end of the last thing he does in the day is write something down in a book, which I really liked, and I'll let you come back on that one in just a second. The second one, um, I've started using an app called craft, and I have all of my notes in there. The lovely thing about it is that you can make them look pretty, but also you can backlink stuff, so you can.

Paul (00:41:47) - So if I've got so even like I was saying about the fear thing, for example, that's backlinks to lots of other articles on psychological safety and growth mindset and all of that sort of stuff. So but quite nicely the family have started using that as well. So my daughter uses it at university for her notes. My younger daughter uses it at six form for hers, but my wife and I have sort of shared notes on there for things like, um. You know, you and I have talked about it before, kind of, you know, and I hate getting to a weekend and going, what are we going to do? Oh, I don't know. You know, what we're going to do today? I don't know, I like to have things sort of planned. So when things come up it goes into craft and we'll go, well, let's have a look and see what's on the list that we haven't done yet. And you know, this weekend was we're going to the Shuttleworth Collection, which is like a collection of old planes, which sounds really dull.

Paul (00:42:32) - And it was it was one of those things that it literally is 15 minutes down the road in Biggleswade. Never been all the time we've lived here. Went along, really enjoyed it. We must have been there about 3 or 4 hours maybe, and we've just scratched the surface of it and the tickets weren't expensive. And the nicest thing was she said, oh, your tickets for a 30 days, so come back any time you like in those 30 days. And it turns out they've got a Christmas fair coming up. And anyway, really lovely. You know, you think we wouldn't have seen it? It just came up. It was on our listing. Right. Let's do it. Take it off. That was really good. So craft and day one. I've got two more. Um. Games, as in manual games, there's a game called Monopoly Deal, which is like a card game. So the way to look at it, obviously, if you're struggling for a present for someone, I think it's minimum of two players up to about eight.

Paul (00:43:22) - And when people hear monopoly, they go, oh Christ, I haven't got time for that. It's probably takes about 10 or 15 minutes a game, just purely cards you can play it anywhere. Think of is the new Uno it we take it on holiday. We do everybody who's played it gone. I love this game. It's brilliant. So that's a really, really good one. And the last one God doesn't get cheaper than this £3.99 I think it was a spaghetti measuring tool. There you go. Now if you have if you haven't got one of those in your drawer.

Caleb (00:43:52) - Hole in it.

Paul (00:43:52) - Oh mate. Freehold free house. But my, my you know, my oldest has gone to university, which means I've suddenly become extraordinarily crap at doing anything where we don't end up with a load of extra food every night. Because I'm still cooking for four and there's only three of us.

Caleb (00:44:06) - So yeah, try and be in our house, mate. They're still cooking for 20 because we can't get out the habit of being off people.

Paul (00:44:15) - Oh, yeah. Fair point. Yeah. Spaghetti measuring tool. Oh, it's a lovely thing.

Caleb (00:44:24) - I the only, the only thing I would add against them is the Cards Against Humanity are a scream at Christmas.

Paul (00:44:31) - Yeah. Fair enough. But you know.

Caleb (00:44:33) - You're not politically correct. But they are a giggle. Yeah.

Paul (00:44:36) - No, absolutely they are. But honestly, the monopoly deal. I can't praise it highly enough. In fact, we took it on holiday with us and one of my younger daughter's friends came with us and she'd ordered she she text her mum and God, mum, we need to get a copy of this when we go on holiday. And anybody who's played it has come back and gone. Yeah, absolutely. We need that. So I think it's the new one I make. Oh and one other tiny thing and you can if you get in quick you can get them on Black Friday or a Cyber Monday. Um, a some sort of holder for your phone if you're an iPhone holder.

Paul (00:45:11) - iPhone user excuse me, a magnetic holder of some sort stripe charger, purely because it sounds like the first thing when they when Apple said, oh, and it's got standby mode, you turn it sideways and it looked like a clock radio. You think what? Honestly completely changed the way I use my phone. So I've got one on the bedside cabinet. I've got one sitting in front of me on a desk phone, turned sideways, turned into a nice clock. Distractions are all gone, and I think you can pick these up for about £15 at the moment. So anyway, you're nodding along.

Caleb (00:45:39) - Yeah. No, no, I agree. I agree with the with the iPhone thing and turning that on landscape that works really nicely. I've just reflected on gifting as well. We've gone proper old school this year. Right. So me and Amanda have got these little advent boxes, empty advent boxes. So for those that are not on the visual, then this is just a sort of a festive little festive box, like a match size box.

Caleb (00:46:09) - And then we've challenged each other to find 12 tiny little advent gifts that go in the box. And then we alternate who's opening the advent box each day, December. So they're really personalised. It obviously takes a bit of pre thought about this because apparently Amanda wanted to do this last year, mentioned it to me and it went over my head and I didn't get any things further for the inside. So she said you are ready this year aren't you? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I've got a load of bits to put in the boxes this year. So yeah, that'll be interesting.

Paul (00:46:44) - What's on your watch list and then I'll do mine.

Caleb (00:46:47) - Well my I'm listening to Clive Morris. Oh nice. Look at the minute. Everything is everything which I've only just started it but I'm really enjoying it. So it's basically him telling the story of his childhood and his parents and everything around him, and some of the conflict zones that he's been to. I can't remember what chapter I'm up to, but I'm really enjoying that.

Caleb (00:47:11) - I really like Clive and he did this, um, I think he did a show where he was going around Italy and stuff as well, but it's just something I really like about Clive, his personality and his demeanor. So yeah, I'm listening to him at the minute. And my guilty pleasure to watch is I'm A Celebrity at the minute. Just.

Caleb (00:47:31) - Oh, you.

Caleb (00:47:32) - Really?

Paul (00:47:32) - Yeah. I wouldn't have had you down for that. Well, I'm going to. I'll talk to you about I'm A Celebrity in a second because I'm going to counter it with, um, massively into survivor, which. So I know survivor from got back in the day. I think it was on in the UK originally, but I think I first saw survivor when I was traveling around Canada. Um, and then since then. Oh blimey. I've just just thought about what I'm about to say. Let's say I know someone in the US who sent me over the DVDs of every, um, every series since. So there's about 40 odd series from the US.

Paul (00:48:08) - We've watched all of those. Clearly, I haven't downloaded from anywhere. But anyway, let's move on. So we're so the kids have been brought up with it and absolutely love it. And the whole.

Caleb (00:48:20) - Host in that.

Paul (00:48:21) - Any if, if, if you if you don't get survivor. It's like I can imagine people looking at it going, well it's all an island. It's just like Love Island. No, it absolutely isn't. Or they'll say, well, it's like it's a knockout because it kind of looks like that. Like they do funny activities. But the whole thing of survivor is, is the, I'll say, the social game that's going on in the background and how it's fascinating to be what we now eight, seven, eight weeks in and no one trusts anybody at all. And it's all about building alliances. It's all about, you know, if I vote for you, you're. And what about honestly psychological safety. Oh they completely. There you go. Honestly that's and it's fascinating to watch it and go all.

Caleb (00:49:05) - About parallel between what actually goes on in corporate organizations.

Paul (00:49:09) - So. Yeah. And you know what one of them I don't know if you're watching it, but one of them last night had an immunity hidden immunity idol. So basically, anyway, I'm not going to bore you with the whole thing, but you go to what they call tribal council, and they all sit there, and they all have to vote. And they're, you know, they write the name of the person they want to send home, and they all do it. So they don't know who's voting for who. But before that, you go into this, Caleb, I tell you what, that Jonathan's a bit dodgy. Yeah, me and you. Let's vote for Jonathan. And I've gone to Jonathan. Gone? Caleb's taken over. Jonathan. I think me and you should fight for, you know, I mean, it's all that sort of stuff going on. Anyway, they decided all this. There's this guy who's. They've decided they're going to vote him out.

Paul (00:49:48) - They've all really gone for it at Tribal Council and gone. Yet Christopher's going. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, he's always been an idiot and a camp anyway. Don't pull his weight. And and all of a sudden he said anybody got a hidden immunity and he goes, yeah, I've got one. They go, oh good. Well any votes for Christopher don't count. So they, they were like, oh, I didn't vote for you anyway. So he then sits in and one of the popular guys in quotes goes on. But it's not that. It's then you only watchable trudge back to camp and go you absolutely did. And then it is how the power struggle works. It's fascinating if you get into it honestly.

Caleb (00:50:25) - Environment.

Paul (00:50:26) - Oh mate, it's it's odd. It's really odd because you're at the point now where you need to win challenges, so you want to keep the strong people in, but then it reaches that tipping point, which is actually I need the strong people to go out so that I'm the strongest now, because obviously you end up with one person who wins it overall.

Paul (00:50:44) - So survivor absolutely love that. I'll come to you in a minute. The only other very quick one, it's nowhere near survivor. It's I watched a documentary last night about Concorde or about supersonic flight in general. It was brilliant. I didn't know what was going on in the background, but, um, the Russians basically had spies so that they wanted to be the first to make a Concorde and that they had their own version as well. But then they crashed one of the air show so that if you watch on channel four, it's only a two parter. But that was really good. Tell me about I'm A Celebrity because I just don't get it.

Caleb (00:51:18) - Well.

Caleb (00:51:20) - I think it sounds like I'm A celebrity is a bit more like, ha! It didn't survive, right? I'm sure. I think that's probably what I like about it. It's just a bit of it's just a bit fun really. And it should be. It should just be a bit of fun, a giggle and, you know, some so-called celebs getting together and you'll always going to get the people that don't get on.

Caleb (00:51:44) - I've, I mean there's none of this sort of that I observed none of this strategic voting or stuff. They're just all in there to try and get on.

Paul (00:51:53) - Well, it's the public vote, isn't it, which you don't get on survivor. Yeah, yeah.

Caleb (00:51:56) - And I think that's what I like. It's just it's just a giggle really. And that's what it should be about. And I think wear it when it's not a giggle. It's generally where you get the backbiting and bitching. But you do see people's true identities in there, because there's only so long that you can mask an identity for. So, you know, and some of those are surprising, some of those, you know, you go, oh, didn't you know, I've got a preconceived idea that I don't think I'd like him. And they're coming across, you know, really nice. Yeah. And you know, and vice versa. But it's you know, it's just when you chuck.

Paul (00:52:33) - In, they're hungry and they're cold and they're tired and people.

Paul (00:52:37) - You're right. People can only wear that mask for a certain amount of time. Right. And eventually they let it slip and you see true colors come out. Yeah.

Caleb (00:52:43) - And I think that's I mean, there's I forget his name now, Sam is just he's just so excitable. It's just.

Paul (00:52:51) - Oh, he's the the radio guy. Yeah. Yeah.

Caleb (00:52:54) - Oh you mean. Yeah. It's just quite comical, actually, because he's so excitable all the time, you know, and they're I'm sure at some point, like we're only a week in or so, he's going to crash in the next few weeks. That is going to start grating on them when you know they're all getting a bit hungry. Yeah. Sam, will you just shut up and get in your box there? But yeah, I just enjoy it. You know, Ant and Dec make it more fun as well because they just silly and they and I guess it just connects with my you know what I sort of like is just silliness, playfulness, people just being themselves and having fun in life.

Caleb (00:53:32) - So.

Paul (00:53:37) - Why did we start with go karting fear and end up with I'm a Celebrity and Survivor. Where did that go?

Caleb (00:53:44) - Well, that's the wacky world of I love it here, isn't it? And that's why we enjoy getting together each month. I think all that's left to say is thanks for listening. We really hope you enjoyed our rambles and our natter ins. And as always, drops a line. If you want to discuss something specific or you just want to get old or one of us.

Paul (00:54:03) - Yeah, absolutely. Find us on LinkedIn. And yeah, Jonathan, get yourself back soon because Caleb and I can only spin a certain amount of plates here. So take care of yourself. See you soon.