I Love it Here

The Importance of Purposeful Learning and Development with James McLuckie

April 03, 2023 Caleb Foster, Paul Westlake, Jonathan Cooper Season 1 Episode 14
I Love it Here
The Importance of Purposeful Learning and Development with James McLuckie
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with our special guest, James McLuckie, about learning and development and the hospitality industry. James is the Chief Learning Officer at Mapal and shared his insights on enhancing the learning experience for people, the challenges facing the hospitality industry, and the potential benefits of AI in the field.

Before diving into the main topics, we also shared our gratitude moments for the month, discussing the importance of staying connected with people and finding ways to overcome challenges in order to be more productive and creative.

Throughout the episode, we had a lively conversation with James about the purpose of learning and development initiatives, the ideal learning experience, and the importance of mentorship and leadership. We also shared some TV and movie recommendations for listeners.

To wrap up the episode, James shared his information for anyone interested in connecting with him on Twitter or LinkedIn. We want to thank James for being a guest on the podcast and thank our listeners for tuning in. Don't hesitate to drop us a line or discuss anything further.

Connect with our hosts
If you'd like to connect with us or influence the conversations we have, reach out and connect with us:
Slack Community: https://iloveithere.slack.com
Paul Westlake: https://www.linkedin.com/in/westyphotography
Caleb Foster: https://www.linkedin.com/in/calebafoster
Jonathan Cooper: https://www.linkedin.com/in/unlearningcoach

**Speaker 0** (00:00:00) - Welcome to, I Love it here, a place where we discuss and share our thoughts on various topics, all focused on making life and work a better experience for everyone.

**Speaker 2** (00:00:26) - Hello and welcome to, I Love It here, a place where we aim to support people with little nuggets of information through our conversation You host today and myself, Caleb Foster and Paul Westlake. And I'm delighted to introduce our guest today, James Mcluckie from Mapal, and, uh, what I've been led to believe Lover of Shite tv. So not <laugh>. Let's get into a great conversation. Um, James, for those people that are not follow, that they know you, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself and, uh, what you do and why you do it.

**Speaker 3** (00:01:00) - Well, I feel like the stakes are quite high. Now, after that introduction, I'm gonna have to try and redeem myself slightly, um, and also feel like I should be cracking open the can after that, uh, that intro music there. But, uh, but so I'm, so James, uh, as you mentioned, I worked for a company called, uh, so I've been working in learning and development for about 20 years, uh, working in digital learning for about 15 years, which ages me terribly. I know. But here we are. Uh, but, um, Sumal essentially is a hospitality technology company so's everything from scheduling and inventory part, the learning experience platform on the learning platform. So that's it, that's my background.

**Speaker 2** (00:01:44) - What I, I, I guess I wanted to tease in a little bit about, um, your role as, um, j what's, what's your official title?

**Speaker 3** (00:01:56) - Uh, chief Learning Officer.

**Speaker 2** (00:01:58) - Chief Learning Officer, which John

**Speaker 3** (00:02:00) - Also, it's terribly grand, doesn't

**Speaker 1** (00:02:02) - <laugh>.

**Speaker 2** (00:02:03) - And, and we might get into this a little bit later, but I really want to tease out today what, what that essentially means and what, what is it that you see that enhances a learning experience for people as well?

**Speaker 4** (00:02:18) - Can I, can I add one to that as well? For as a, as a, as a possibly, can we discuss, I'd love to get your take, James, on if you, if we can hospitality as, as an industry, the wider hospitality industry, and maybe some of the challenges. We, we hear a lot about the challenges, uh, hospitality is facing, but it'd be great to see that from the other side and certainly how you are, um, enabling learning within that industry. You know, people are, they're, they're sort of staff everywhere and all of that and, and, and how that's gonna work. So I, I'd love to dig into that whole hospitality bit and obviously, bear in mind that Caleb and I have got a sort of a bit of a hospitality background as well. Yes. So, you know, yeah, yeah. I, I, I'm interested to see how much it's changed since I sort of moving, moving away from that. So, anyway, sorry, Caleb. I, I, I've given you a huge to-do list there. Now,

**Speaker 3** (00:03:04) - <laugh>,

**Speaker 2** (00:03:05) - I think that, uh, I mean, teaser, teaser show up to today really nicely, that there's a red thread that goes through everything that all three of us do actually. We are connected with learning, we're connected with digital learning, and we're connected to hospitality as well. So, yeah, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of connections there today. But I guess before we really get into the depth of the conversation, I, I wanna start with some of the gratitudes that, that we've all experienced this month, which also might spin off some conversation. Are, do you want me to kick off first?

**Speaker 4** (00:03:36) - Go on, why not? I've

**Speaker 2** (00:03:38) - Got, I've got a really, um, uh, tugging at the heartstrings moment this month. So for the first time I met my great, my great nephew, and I did have to google actually what my great nephew was to me because I was struggling to work out actually what the relationship is. But, uh, <laugh>. So, uh, he is obviously my niece's son. His name's, uh, Finns, Finns Fox, or Finn for sure. And I ended up calling him Foxy, but he's three months old, and I met him the other day. Um, and so my, um, my gratitude moment was I didn't make him cry, which is always a first step cuz I reminded mom that the first thing she did when I, uh, met her was she balled at me. Um, but, um, he was sitting, sitting on my knees actually, and I kept making him laugh and in return I just got farts. So <laugh>, I was tickling him more and he kept farting more, which was most amusing actually. And, um, <laugh> and Woody wasn't that impressed with him, ironically. So Wardy is, um, now my, my fur baby. Oh. Um, who all he is ever known as me and Amanda at home with him. And he was like, what is this thing taking over

**Speaker 3** (00:04:50) - My spot? <laugh> <laugh>. Is he a cut or a dog or a He's a dog. He's a dog.

**Speaker 2** (00:04:58) - Well, he is curled up asleep there, but he's a little multi poo. He's no bigger than the cat, actually, but, um, yes, he's a, he's a little diva, but in a really good way. But yeah, <laugh>, so we and

**Speaker 4** (00:05:11) - The family close to you as in, um, geographically close Ko?

**Speaker 2** (00:05:14) - Uh, they're not that far actually. So they live in, uh, Nottingham, so, alright. You know, it's only sort of an hour and 20 minutes, but, um, yeah, yeah, it was, uh, it was sort of fun, really. And I, I guess the, the thing that brought a smile to my face is, uh, Florence, who's my niece, we used to look after her as a little baby as well. Weird. And it was just bonkers, really for me to sit there and go, oh my God, this is like, you know, I think Flo's 30, so this was like 30 years ago and, you know, another generation now, but it just, just shows how old you, you <laugh>. But you know, that it was a, a real nice gratitude moment actually to go

**Speaker 4** (00:05:56) - And see him.

**Speaker 3** (00:05:57) - Oh, lovely.

**Speaker 4** (00:05:58) - Sounds fantastic. What about yourself, James? What are you grateful for this month, week?

**Speaker 3** (00:06:02) - Um,

**Speaker 4** (00:06:03) - What's week, week's a bit short? Cause you only had yesterday, let's go.

**Speaker 3** (00:06:06) - Well, something actually happened this morning, actually, which is pretty, anyway, so, uh, I, um, my previous role, uh, I left during lockdown, so I didn't have a leaving due. Uh, and my boss also left at that period as well, and he was also a 60th birthday, and we had planned this big leaving celebration forum and then heed 60th birthday party, and it just didn't happen cause of, um, the pandemic. Um, and he sent a text this morning, actually, Peter, his name's Peter, he's a, a real, he was a real mentor to me. And I'm sure we'll probably get into some of that, that chat when we start talking about, you know, learning and figures in your life who have been central to, uh, your development. But, um, I got in touch this morning, said, look, I've been thinking about this. Um, you know, none of us had a leaving. We need to have some, so I'm gonna organize it. Um, and I just thought that how nice to have helped to have held onto that and not thought, you know, we've all moved on and, uh, you know, we've all got different things going in our lives now. He's, he's, you know, he's, he's definitely make that happen a measure of how lovely, uh, Peter is and that Nice. So I'm just brought a cup of coffee, uh, by my very nice faithful, my faithful house boy, uh, <laugh>,

**Speaker 4** (00:07:23) - Some of you grateful fit right there. Look, you got someone

**Speaker 3** (00:07:27) - On the, almost like I planned it. Uh, but, uh, yeah, so really this morning when the message pinged up, um, and it's just, it's just a market through Peter Rose. He's an incredibly thoughtful person. But, um, yeah, just that desire to make sure that, you know, we all have that celebration of, you know, of, of, of our, you know, our previous, uh, work connections I thought was, was really, really lovely. So yes. So I was feeling quite grateful for that this morning.

**Speaker 4** (00:07:56) - Yeah, really like that. It's, and I sort of, it's kind of similar, I guess we, um, I, I'll say we, so obviously my background as we've already alluded to is hospitality is McDonald's, and I was at McDonald's for a very, very long time. And, uh, 28 and a half years, there you go. And sort of 10 years in l and d and in that time you can imagine people have come and gone and all of the rest of it. And ironically, I work with two people now that I used to work with in McDonald's L and d as well. And it was month before last, we had a, we do it about once it was six months. We, we, we try, we, we say we're gonna do it more often, but lining diary is always so difficult. But we've kept this sort of like the, the ex training team and we all have gone off to do other things.

**Speaker 4** (00:08:36) - One of, I think one, only one of us is still there at McDonald's, but it's just so nice hearing what everyone else has been up to and sharing best, and it just becomes a bit of a chat. But you're right, the easy thing to do is to say, oh, well, we've all moved on and we all work there in the pub, but no, you know, and it's surprising, God, I'm gonna upset some people here, but it's surprising how much better you get on with some people that you never really job with. It sounds really odd, but because you're all together in that situation, you're talking about different, you see people from different, in a different light, I guess. But, um, really, really nice thing to do is to sort of keep in touch and, and I'm personally rubbish at that. You know, I, I'll, I'll talk to the family if I have to. Oh, no, that sounds terrible, but you, but the longer you leave these things, actually, the harder it gets, right? It's like, oh, we haven't spoken for three years. What are we gonna talk about? And it's surprising within sort of five, 10 minutes of being there and, you know, cracking open a beer or, or whatever. It, it's actually, you know, we have got a lot to talk about, you know, or you just, you just pick it back up again. So I really, really like that. Sorry, Kelly, you'd like gonna say something?

**Speaker 2** (00:09:36) - No, I would just echo in actually what James has just said. So I, um, I mean, I met, um, Peter A. Long time ago actually at learning technology's exhibition when, um, when good practice was a thing.

**Speaker 3** (00:09:51) - Um, oh God, that's, that's going back in the mists of Tony <laugh>.

**Speaker 2** (00:09:57) - But, um, I, I sort of echo that. I, I've, and also what Wes has just said, I used to be really rubbish at keeping in touch, but since, um, since doing the podcast actually, and, um, challenging myself to connect with people constantly, I make a point of di Rising, like a regular catchup and just sort of contacting a lot of people to say, should we just have a con catchup, you know, no. Mm-hmm. Nothing, you know, other than let's just have a chat and chew what's going, you know, over in the, in the world and stuff like that. And, you know, I I've never really been at any good at that, but the value of getting, you know, getting time in my diary to do that always. And there's been a consistent theme on this podcast from gratitude, which has been connecting with people and making time for people.

**Speaker 3** (00:10:54) - Yeah, I mean, actually I think I, I mean just, just listening to you guys talk, there are just, I think one of the things that I would say that I'm quite good at is, is keeping in touch with, with people, um, you know, I do make a point of, you know, going out for dinner with people, like tomorrow night for example, I'm going out with two, two ladies that went to university with back in 1994. You know, we, you know, we've, uh, I mean it's, it's slightly sad reasons. I mean, I lost my father last year and, uh, one of the ladies I'm, I'm meeting, uh, lost our father very recently. So we've got that kinda let's go and, you know, have a, a conversation about, you know, what we're both going through. And another friend is, um, is coming out with us. But, but we did meet up again, you know, before that, so you know that that's been a meet tomorrow.

**Speaker 3** (00:11:38) - But we, we met up again, you know, last year. So, so yeah, I think generally speaking, I'm pretty good at keeping in touch with people. I'm not sure how Facebook kinda changes that sometimes feel connected to about them, you know, that where they went shopping or where they went for dinner or what have you. And then you realize that's Chris. I've not actually seen that person for about 20 years, but you, I feel like I've seen you because I see your, your Facebook post. Um, but, but yeah, generally speaking, I've lot of friends that I've kept in touch with, I'm still in touch with people I went to with, I'm probably more friendly with some of them now than I was at school, uh, just because, you know, we've all developed as human beings and, you know, our lives have changed and we've got similar interests and things, so, uh, tends to around food and drink actually.

**Speaker 3** (00:12:25) - But, uh, it tends to be where, where we connect most. But, and tv, uh, as you mentioned, so, um, and also some good TV as well and, and cinema and things as well. So not, it's not, it's not all crap, but, uh, yeah, no, I think, I think people are really important. Um, you know, and you know, and I guess given the jobs that we do, which is, you know, working and learning development, I think there, there has to be that kind of people focus there. Um, although I did have a boss once who in a, in a previous role who was the capability development manager, but seemed to really hate people. So that's an odds didn't last very long job. I this is not,

**Speaker 4** (00:13:13) - You know, its been mentioned, sorry. Yeah, it's been mentioned twice now about your, your, your, your love of, um, somewhat suspect TV <laugh> for regular listeners, sort listeners. Um, I'm sure they, they, they're very aware towards the end of the podcast to Caleb and I, and, and Jonathan, when he's here usually talk about, this is what's on my playlist and you must watch this. So when we get to that bit, we're gonna look at you to Ja James actually give us some things that we should be watching. And you know, that everyone's gonna completely discount that information. <laugh> or shouldn't be watching believe Rubish <laugh>.

**Speaker 3** (00:13:43) - Well, I'm gonna say if something really credible, but just, just just to try and flip That's right. Flip this around. So, uh,

**Speaker 4** (00:13:49) - Absolutely. This

**Speaker 2** (00:13:50) - Is not a high brow podcast,

**Speaker 4** (00:13:52) - Certainly.

**Speaker 3** (00:13:53) - Okay. I'm not blind, don't worry. <laugh>, <laugh>.

**Speaker 2** (00:13:59) - Go on there. Wey. What's your gratitude moment?

**Speaker 4** (00:14:01) - Well, you see, again, you've, you, you've, you've done me there cause you've talked about sort of you great niece and, uh, James has talked about, you know, people know, and I'm just gonna bring up my blooming technology. Like I always say, no, there, there's a couple. So do you know what I'm really grateful for? I, I'm open enough to tell you. And, and we've heard this conversation o offline before ke, but I've really struggled with the whole procrastination bit in getting started. And, and, and I, I've really been looking into it and, and we have all of these sort of different reasons why we sort of struggle with, with some of this stuff. Mine, believe it or not, tends to be around, um, sort of this idea of aiming for perfection. So if, if, if I don't think it's gonna be great, I then think, well, they might not like it anyway, and where would I start?

**Speaker 4** (00:14:42) - And all this. So anyway, so I've been, been sort of trying to get better at this stuff. Um, and I sort of dug out a couple of apps or, but I've been, been doing some research into a few apps and I've been using something called Session, um, for a number of weeks now, and it's going extremely well. And it, and it does, I know this is gonna sound really draconian, but basically it, it's like, you are gonna look at this app now and all of this other stuff you can't even see, and you are gonna, you know, now that you're doing this for 20 minutes and at the end of that 20 minutes now, I want you to rate that. And, and it's really helping because at the end of each week, I look back over it and think, where, where did I get distracted and where, where did I not focus on this thing?

**Speaker 4** (00:15:20) - And, and it seems to be getting better and better. So that's part one. And I'm re really, really pleased and I'm happy to share how that some of that stuff works. The second part of that, I had that absolute dread moment for me. Um, you know, like last week our marketing person said, oh, Wesley, um, we need you to put together a sort of a blog post. It doesn't have to be anything major, but can you just, and I said, well, what's it about? And I know me being very sort of blue insights is what exactly do you want? What's the title? How long's it gotta be, yada, yada, yada. She said, well, you know, it's up, you just do anything. Now that fills me with absolute horror because I'm thinking, no, no, what exactly do you want and what's it look like? And it's that, that that mist came down and I couldn't get started.

**Speaker 4** (00:16:01) - And you know, what I then at the same time was I chatted to yourself actually, and we were talking about, um, some of the AI tools, and I just sort of basically started with one of those and said, I want a blog post, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it, I didn't lift it from there, but you know what, it gave me a title, it gave me a rough outline. And I thought, oh, okay, well quite like those headings and I can fill bits in. It was absolutely amazing how quickly this, this thing just built. Um, and I thought, no, I don't don't like that bit. I don't like that, but I'm gonna change this. But you know what, I, in the flow of work, it was so, so quick. And then to what, what I'm really grateful for with my background of digital design, when Adobe launched Firefly last weekend, and, and I'm sure I'm happy to talk about this as well, but some of that stuff is just, again, it's not getting it to do the work for you, but having the, I'm so grateful for things that are making me more creative by giving me ideas.

**Speaker 4** (00:16:56) - Does, does that make sense? And I know, Caleb, you're in the same boat.

**Speaker 2** (00:17:01) - I think the,

**Speaker 2** (00:17:04) - Well, I can only echo what you've just said about what you are grateful for. And I think that then spills into AI leveraging, um, or fortifying enhancing the word that you want to use. I think there's a lot of, um, scare moning at the minute ago. AI is gonna take over or replace stuff. I actually see it different for that. I think it's fortifying, uh, um, super powers, which is stop procrastinating and give you a little spark of inspiration. And then it embellishes a lot of stuff that, that you've already got inside you. And, and, and I see that in tools like Write Sonic, which is writing and Firefly and, um, mid journey, which is all sort of creative and it's about, I've got this vision, I'm a creative person, a human, but I'd need some inspiration on how I'm gonna pull that together. And that's, that's the power of all of that. I see. Really,

**Speaker 4** (00:18:05) - Did you, do you know what, just in terms of productivity alone, um, I was writing, it was only a short piece, um, short piece of relearning that we were writing, um, uh, last week. And I, it amazes me how long I spend searching for the right image to support just a tiny bit of take, whatever it may be. Actually, I want an image where it's this person doing this, and now let's say it's, I dunno, fire safety. It's like, so I want someone who's, who's looking confused, looking at three different fire extinguishers and you could spend hours looking for that image and never really find it. Yeah, I could put it together in PowerPoint, but that's a two seconds in fire fly going picture of da da da with, with background of this. And, and all of a sudden this thing's popped up and now you, I'm not lifting it from there. And you know, for full disclosure, fireflies in beta and you can't use it for commercial purposes and all the rest of it. But what's really nice is that have the skills to be able to then say, ah, that's exactly what I'm looking for. I can build that myself in Illustrator or P Photoshop or whatever it may be. And it's so quick, the amount of stuff it's coming up with and it just, yeah, just makes you so much more productive. It's bonkers. I

**Speaker 3** (00:19:12) - Thought you were No, I just, I, it's, it's just interesting cause um, I think it probably touches what Caleb says, a lot of people who are, feel that AI is, um, something to be slightly concerned about. Uh, and think, you know, it, it probably gives you a lot of space to be more creative because it can do a lot of the things which are quite, could be quite dru like, like, you know, drudgery, is that the right word? But stuff is a bit more laborious, right? Like, as you said, like trying to search for an image. Well actually now you don't have to spend that time doing that. You can, you can spend that time and invest that time and do more creative endeavors of things that generally inspire you or, or motivate you. Um, but there was an article on the Either of the Garden or The Observer a few weeks ago, um, where there was a lot of artists were talking about how concerned they are by AI and they cave.

**Speaker 3** (00:20:05) - I think some had used AI tool to write me very esque, uh, and I think Mr. Cave was quite insulted by what came back, but actually I read them and went, do seem like something Nick Cave would actually, right? So <laugh>. So, so yeah, I mean, I think it's astonishing. How's on, you know, and I generally, there's a lot of reasons to be truthful about it because, you know, it's, I don't, I used Chart GBT recently just, just to test it out. Um, and I wrote, tell me, describe what SCOM is. Um, and the first answer it gave me black was jish, right? It was like that, that's completely incorrect, but I'm gonna try it again. So immediately I typed in the same question and I got an answer back that was incredibly accurate and, uh, really well written. And the punctuation and everything was, was all spot on. Um, now I'm not quite sure what to make of that, cuz the first time was crap. Second time was perfect. Um, and I guess, you know, we have to remember these things are still massively being developed. Um, but yeah, I mean it was, it was quite a stunning experience actually to, to,

**Speaker 4** (00:21:19) - But you know, I I,

**Speaker 4** (00:21:21) - It's a lovely example James. And the example you've given there almost to me fills me with more confidence because you knew it was crap. So you won't get it to just say, do this and write it for me. You're using it as a support tool. It's, I know, I know it's totally different, but it's a bit like, um, you know, all of the, um, the driver aids in cars, all of the self parking, right? They're all still called driver aids, which is pretty much, you know what they, you're there to make it easier for the driver. You're not there to do it for them. Cause there's this, there's not full autonomy. And I think we need to see sort of that some of the chat G p T stuff is a little bit like that, which is, for me, I needed an outline I needed, or I'll write something and I know it's waffly as hell, but being able to say, can you summarize this for me?

**Speaker 4** (00:22:03) - And you're right. You think, oh, look at those three sentences. It's just said everything I wanted to say, but it's so much, you know, it's, it's that sort of plain English, very interesting conversation with, um, uh, my eldest daughter who's, uh, sort studying for A levels at the moment. And, and she's saying, yeah, but it's, it's doing people's homework for Dad is cheating. And I said, well, okay, that's one way of looking at it. I said, but you are, you are researching, she's doing, um, psychology of philosophy. And, and I, when when you research this stuff, what do you actually do? You said, well, I'll look at all these different books and I'll look on the internet and I'll do this and I'll write all my notes no different. I'll write, okay, what do you think that's doing then? Yeah, because you know what that is looking for all of these reference things and it's summarizing things and it's basically writing your notes.

**Speaker 4** (00:22:42) - And she said, uh, pretty much the same thing, Annette. I said, yeah, do you know what, it's with all respect, it's doing that downside quickly. You are bit, again, it was, I'm not saying she's not using that to do her homework, but sh all of a sudden she's like, yeah, I asked it to summarize this. Right? I've, she's, she's using it now to, it's something she doesn't quite get. She'll say, can you explain this to me? And it rewords it and she's like, I kind of get it now. It's, I mean, it's it's fascinating area. It really is.

**Speaker 3** (00:23:05) - I mean, I think, I mean, yeah, I mean, you, well, firstly, that's the first time I've heard Scom being called a lovely example of anything. So that's, uh, that's

**Speaker 4** (00:23:12) - <laugh> clip, that's first show title

**Speaker 3** (00:23:17) - <laugh>. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that way of thinking about it as, as a research tool, because, you know, I spoke to a couple of, um, you know, to keep continuing with the theme of of, of keeping in touch with people. I'm so in touch with some of my old lecturers from when I did my master's degree, um, and we had a conversation about this and they were saying, look, you know, it's, it's so obvious to them when someone has used a tool like, yeah, chat gtp he says, says, you know, so, um, and she says they, they don't mind if they use a tool like that as long as what they do is they then rewrite it or they use it in a way that it still feels like it's their voice. And they said, absolutely, it is really obvious when that happens. Um, but she says, I've got absolutely no problem for people using it as a, as a research tool. Cause effectively, you know, that's the way that she uses it. Um, and, uh, you know, and I think that was a really smart way of thinking about this is it's not, it's not, it's, it's another tool in our toolbox. It's, it's, it's nothing, nothing more than that really.

**Speaker 2** (00:24:15) - I, um, again, I I think one of the, uh, uh, human superpowers is that we've got a conscience and it's how we, how we apply that. And you, you could say the same about everything and anything in the world. There's, there's those people that are gonna leverage it for the right reasons and the good reasons. And there's going to be people that leverage it for, you know, for bad reasons. And there's no stopping that, you know, we've, we've got a conscience that can be corrupted or we can, you know, you know, build on it and, and that that's the power of all of this. So I, I did exactly the same with chat. So going back to my gratitude moment when, so I saw Finn, um, Flo made us a lovely, um, uh, vegan meal, really simple. And I went home thinking I need some inspiration for dinner.

**Speaker 2** (00:25:06) - So of course, what did I do? Went onto G P T and I, I asked it to give me a four weeks menu of vegan meals. And then I said, can you put all that in the tabulated, um, order with the ingredients and the method? It did that again in sort of five minutes. And that was me using that for good. Now my background is, I'm, I'm a chef, right? That's right. Yeah. You know, so someone would say, surely you should know all that. I just needed some inspiration at the time. And then, you know, I p pull out of there what I want, what I don't want, and how I want that presenting to me. And, and again, leaning on what West has said about the article and what you've just said, James, about using it as a tool. I find all of these tools you absolutely need to put it in your voice. So how you are gonna, how you talk through it. And, and again, I've got a voice, you know, mind Boozers got a voice on how we wanna portray things. Chat doesn't know that voice. And so you have to get the inspiration and, and not rewrite it, but put your tone of voice on it, and now you wanna present it to the world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it does save an awful lot of time for everyone.

**Speaker 2** (00:26:26) - I guess what I really wanna understand is what, what, what do you think a great learning experience feels like? You know, what is it you are looking at when, when we are crafting a learning experience? Because I, you know, I know what I look at and it's always good to sort of bounce things off of, of different creatives and learning experts as well.

**Speaker 3** (00:26:46) - Yeah. Well, it, it's, I guess it's, it's different depending on, on, on the context. I mean, if I had to give you my very practiced answer, uh, I would say it's anything that's, that, that serves a purpose. Um, so anything that, you know, that, that helps someone to do something that they need to do. Uh, so, and, you know, and I always, when I worked to, you know, good practice before, uh, which was my previous job, um, the sales guys hated me because I'd be in these customer meetings, uh, and the, the, they'd be pontificating about what they, what the customer needed, what, what challenge they needed to solve. I say, guys, I know you've got 50 there and you've got this idea in your head, you need bunch of videos, but actually listen, really all you need is a checklist. Um, you know, so why don't you keep, and then come back to me a certain point where, you know, we can u use it for, for, um, a decent purpose.

**Speaker 3** (00:27:47) - Um, so of course the sales, oh God sake, you know, let's just lost that sale. I, well, no, cause they'll, they'll come back, they'll come back to, yeah. Uh, and you know, we, we could take their money now. Um, but you know, what we build for them won't be for purpose. Um, you know, it'll be a waste of everyone's time. Uh, whereas we're giving them something which genuinely work for them. Um, they'll feel that we a trusted or a trusted partner also as well that you so are seduced by of the, the more kind of wizzy stuff like animations, which, you know, we use a lot. Uh, and I've used animations quite a lot. Um, but I think the, the thing I always try and instill to my, my team and the, the people that I work with is there has to be an outcome here.

**Speaker 3** (00:28:40) - I mean, I think that's why Kathy Moore's action mapping is something I've always taken with me. And, uh, cause when you start off with the outcome, um, what you build, as long as you're still speaking to that, um, we'll have the purpose that I think that all learning resources have to have. Um, and you know, whenever I have a new team member or I have, you know, something, join a new company or what have you, I always introduce action mapping. And I always get people to read, uh, Julie D's design for how people learn. Because, you know, the, the common sense, practical nature of both those tools, action mapping and the design for how people learn, I think are just things that I've taken with me everywhere. Um, as I said, because they are incredibly practical on, you know, specifically are rooted in common sense. So, um, you know, so, so for me, a learning, a good learning experience is I need to be able to do something. Um, and you've helped me to achieve that.

**Speaker 4** (00:29:37) - You mentioned using animations and, uh, and, and the, the like. And, and, and obviously you are very, um, focused on the hospitality industry. That's clearly what you do. Do you have to consider designing or have you changed the way you design learning? If you maybe are designing for someone or an audience that predominantly, maybe English isn't people's first language, how do you, how do you approach that?

**Speaker 3** (00:30:06) - Um, well that is interesting cuz obviously in in the sector a lot of people, you know, their English is, is their second language. Sure. So we, we, we have found that animations in a great way, um, of getting a lot of information across in a very creative way. Um, now you, you guys will know in hospitality, there's a lot of mandatory learning, uh, and some of it could be quite dry. And one of the challenges I set myself when I joined, um, Macal was, you know, how do I make food allergen sexy? Right? So, you know, it feels like, you know, it's something that's being, someone wants to go through this learning experience rather than feel it's been done to them. Um, so we did use quite a lot of animations because we found, you know, you guys will know in hospitality, it's a very time poor, um, environment for a lot of people.

**Speaker 3** (00:30:53) - Um, yes, I mean, we know that some people complete our learning in a break with a set on a beer bottle without language in one hand and phone in the other. And they're going through their food health and safety, uh, learning. Yep. So I feel that we owe it to those people to try and make it as engaging as possible and not just something that's a tick box exercise. Um, so yeah, we, that, you know, we have to make sure that when things are written, so the way that we develop our content is written in English first and then gets translated into French and Spanish are two, uh, biggest other markets, France, Spain. Um, so, you know, when we're storyboarding, we do make sure that we don't overwrite. Um, so how I would necessarily write, uh, like a blog post or how I would write, uh, you know, an email to someone isn't necessarily the way I would write, um, the content that we put into our, our learning resource.

**Speaker 3** (00:31:47) - So, so yeah, we do try and make sure it's written in a way that it's more kinda matter, but it's, it's always written in second person, so we always talking to someone, um, and the way we guidance I've given, um, my learning experience is try and think of your tone as being a helpful friend. Like you're talking to someone, um, you know, and that you're, you're their buddy and you're, you are there to try and help them achieve something. Um, and just through having that tone, the writing tends to feel like it's got a little bit of life to it. Um, you know, so, uh, but yeah, so I mean, I think at a certain point we do have to be mindful of this sentence would be quite hard to translate. Uh, so, you know, that's why we, we write, we do kinda friendly second person and, um, yeah. Not, not overwritten.

**Speaker 4** (00:32:39) - Uh, yeah. Love, love that.

**Speaker 2** (00:32:42) - I, I mean, I, I think that's about knowing, knowing the sector, knowing your audience. And I think, but then I, I'll always challenge is it, is it specific to that sector anyway, actually? Because if you put a lot of stuff in the playful tone and how a lot of people, um, communicate with each other, you know, mo most people want, um, informal, easy to digest, you know, information these days anyway. We always think about, you know, the insurance sector, the banking sector being, you know, very, um, oh, you know, very corporate, very different. I think the whole machine probably is, but actually when you scrape away and ask someone, you know, what's the best way to chat to you? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, most people would say just have a conversation. Just have a chat and just make it, you know, nice and simple.

**Speaker 4** (00:33:36) - Um, I, I think part of that depends on who you're asking. If, if you ask that question to the l and d team, you may get a very different answer to the people are actually gonna do the, the part of the learning as well. And, and, and, and similarly let, lemme put some meat on the bones of what I've just said there. So it was really interesting to hear James say, you know, these people are very tight and we know that that's absolutely true. You know, the people are doing things on, on, you know, a five minute piece or a 10 minute piece on their way on the bus, so to speak. And yet still, and and this is something that we've discussed before, Caleb, and still you'll go into, um, picture piece of, and, and in some cases like, well how, how long am I getting for my money? You're like, well it's irrelevant cuz you know, what if I can teach them what they're supposed to know in five minutes, is that any less beneficial than me giving you an hours piece of learning? And yet still it makes me cringe, but as an industry, there's still a lot of people out there that are, are, are, are pricing e-learning by the hour, which seems a completely bonkers compared to what just said.

**Speaker 2** (00:34:34) - I think that comes back to James's point about what's the purpose? Because that, and actually that that means that, you know, um, l and d teams and or external agencies are the experts and should be that trusted partner. Like, like, like we've said to go, well, you might have, you might have an hour's worth of e-learning in your head. You've predisposed that that's a solution. Now we understand the purpose your audience and what you are trying to get out of it. We would recommend x I mean that, that we've got an obligation to have that open and honest conversation. Because at the heart of everything, and I think James said it earlier, people are really important and you know, uh, then the trust comes back from the value that you are adding. Because if you are add adding value to people, that organization will recognize that. And if that value is being added through a 32nd video rather than a 60 minute piece of e-learning, they'll appreciate that value that you are adding.

**Speaker 3** (00:35:38) - Yeah. I think you know, that, that it's quite an interesting dilemma we sometimes have, but you're, you're trying to, uh, prove to customer the kind of, the impact. Uh, and their perception is if I do deliver 50 videos, um, that kind of value for money, or I've got more buying from a buck where it's like, well actually no, because it's, you know, it's not been thought through in terms of the outcomes or it's not been, it's genuinely not what's needed, uh, to solve the problem you're trying to solve. Where this, this thing might seem very cheap. Um, but actually it's designed to deliver what you need to deliver and it will deliver it. Cause it's been thought of that way. Uh, just cause it doesn't look really expensive and glossy and, you know, there's a lovely bit of music or whatever on it. Um, doesn't mean it's not the job it's designed to do. Uh, so, so yeah, I've little bit that, you know, the, they want to spend money, um, and they feel that's where the value's coming from and it's like, well, okay, but, you know,

**Speaker 2** (00:36:44) - Well that's, that's a, that's a difference from fine ironing and having really tiny portions that you pay a fortune for or having, you know, bangers a mash and being really full up on it. You know, I guess, uh, what's the purpose out of this? Do you wanna, do you wanna go away feeling that you've, you know, spent a fortune and everyone's seen you in that restaurant? Yeah. Or do you wanna go away feeling that you've, you know, had a fair value meal and you, you're full up? Uh, you know, it's the sort of the, that analogy.

**Speaker 3** (00:37:11) - Yeah, I'd always, I I'm very much just give me the cottage pay rather than the, uh,

**Speaker 2** (00:37:20) - I feel good. Yeah. I've, I've, I've got value out there.

**Speaker 4** (00:37:24) - <laugh>. What what about you personally, James, with, with your experience and, and the the amount of learning you've probably designed over the years and, and what you've seen and, and also it, it's, it's worth us mentioning, you know, you very experiences as a, as a judge. So you, you see a, a whole range of solutions from, from a number of, you know, from dozens and dozens of companies, I expect. So what does a what, what did, what would the ideal piece of learning for you look like?

**Speaker 3** (00:37:51) - Um, I mean, I've had the, the example I always given when people tell me what, what, what was a great learning experience for you? What's the, but the one that always sticks in my mind is, you know, I'm gonna betray my industry terribly here. Um, because it was a, it was a face-to-face experience. Um, and it was a diversity and inclusion course. Uh, and it basically, it was fiber, yeah. Five or six of us just in a room with a facilitator. And all she did is she just asked us questions and then, and then just, but just guided the conversation in such a way that, you know, we, we always stayed on topic and we know we were getting the information outta it that we, we we needed. And I just thought, you know, it, it really stuck with me. I think, you know what, that, that's really smart the way you handled that.

**Speaker 3** (00:38:40) - You know, um, you didn't play a video and then invite, okay, what did you get? You know, she, she just basically asked a really thought provoking questions. Um, and I kind of realized my, my my biggest or most effective learning experience probably are all led by conversations and, you know, tapping into really smart individuals or people who've got an interesting story to tell. Uh, and I'm finding out from them, um, information. Um, so I mean, my, my personally, I mean I, I learned much more from my, with personal learning network or communities have practice that I've built up over the years. Um, you know, I, I can't remember the last time I, apart from my own stuff, obviously, uh, I can't remember the last time I did an e-learning course, um, and thought it was impactful. Um, cause a lot of it, I mean, again, I don't want to my industry here, but it's, it's really telling when I meet someone and they ask me what to do for a living and I say, oh, I work for a, an e-learning company, and you can just see the light going out, uh, instantly <laugh>, it's like, cause they've all had that experience of, you know, compli eLearning and stuff like that.

**Speaker 3** (00:39:49) - So I explain I'd like to is probably bit different from e-learning that you've experienced. Um, so

**Speaker 4** (00:39:58) - I, I never ever told anyone I worked for McDonald's. I was always a restaurant manager and they all go, oh, nice <laugh>, you guys got this idea some high anything <laugh>, so can you say McDonald's? I said, right, well I was in the other day and my fries were cold and what are you gonna do about it? And you think, well, I haven't got time for this <laugh>. Yeah,

**Speaker 3** (00:40:13) - Exactly. Yeah. Life, life is too short. Uh, but, um, yeah, I, I think, so my personally, the really kinda conversation based, uh, is is what I've always found is, is a really good, um, learning experience. I like, I like talking to people. I like finding out, you know, their take on things and you know, how did you achieve that? And even if, you know, they, they, they don't have experience of what I need to get done. Um, sometimes just be able to pick it apart with someone who's got, you know, um, a quite robust thought processes I think is, uh, is always quite, quite helpful. Yeah. Um, I'm interest, what, what were you guys, what, what, what do you think

**Speaker 4** (00:40:53) - I, you know, what I, I I personally totally agree with this is so ironic cause we all work in the digital industry. So, but the thing that sticks with me is that, and maybe this is just me, but when you ask people what they get most out of a course, I don't think I've ever heard them say, oh, tutor was really good and I really like that session. Oh, by the way of PowerPoint is if it's the amount of times you have that conversation going, oh, I learned so much from everyone else in the questions that came up. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's the, it's the social side of that course. It's the conversations. Yeah, it is, it's, it's the interesting conversations. It's, um, I'll tell me about it's, you know, and other people asking questions. I'm think, why are they asking that question?

**Speaker 4** (00:41:34) - Oh, I see. You know, and so for me, yes, there is that, um, I like to be a little bit prepared upfront and whether that is somebody sharing something and me just getting a bit of a taster for what maybe I can expect or, you know, I, I quite like that as well, but I'm, I'm not a great reader if I'm honest. You know, for me, you know, some, some animations or someone explaining something, it's really strange. Ironically, I was, I was in a classroom yesterday and um, we, we were delivering, um, sort of leadership training. And what we started doing recently is looking through and saying, which of these slides can we take out and can I use the flip chart for? And I know that sounds bonkers, and I know that sounds really old school, but there's some connection there by being able to do that, you know, I can put a slide up that explains circle of concern, c circle of influence, and all of the rest of it. Or I can go, actually, do you, let me show you this. You know, you flick it over and you start drawing this thing on the flip chart and things come and, and you're right because it fills, well, firstly, it fills off the cuff and secondly it feels conversational. So there's, there's definitely something in that. So he can kind of, you were saying the same about conversations?

**Speaker 2** (00:42:35) - Well, I think, so I approach digital learning, um, in a, in a way that you would approach a piece of facilitated learning as well. So when you are creating a, um, a facilitated session, it's not always about the subject. It's about how do you create a great atmosphere? How are you gonna get people enthused? And how are you gonna spark the opportunity for people to talk in that session? And that talk sometimes is relevant or it's not relevant to the subject, but as a facilitator, you are guiding it along a path to engage, you know, conversation to drop nuggets in rather than just show all the time. And I've always found that the best pieces of e-learning have come from a previous face-to-face session that have gone amazingly well. And generally what I do is ask the, the attendees, the delegates of that session to say, what was it that you loved about that session?

**Speaker 2** (00:43:41) - And in most cases, I will say it felt like it didn't feel like a training session. Yeah. It felt like we were just having a chat about something. But you know what, I've come away with all these notes as inspiration, and if you bottle all that up in a piece of digital learning, then, then for me, that's the perfect, you know, piece of learning. Because I, I've just, what we are trying to do now when we are creating digital learning is what's the feeling that you are trying to evoke as, as part of this learning? Not necessarily what's the, you know, what are the objectives, what are the outcome is, what's the feeling that you are trying to invoke? And, and really encouraging the people to stimulate more conversation as a result of that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then, you know, we, we always say that form and function live together. It's not form over function or vice versa. It's both combined because as we've already said, an animation, an illustration will paint that picture. And you haven't gotta put, you know, war and peace into a piece of e-learning. And, and if you leave it as a cliffhanger at the end of a five minute piece of e-learning, then that's absolutely fine. We'll then say, well, this is the start of a campaign,

**Speaker 4** (00:45:05) - God, bro, time's flying. Caleb, we've got, we've got about sort of 15 or so minutes left. So do, do you wanna, should we, should we dig into what's on your playlist? Or, or do you want to sort of dig more into, um, what we can do around sort of some of the hospitality stuff? What do you wanna do?

**Speaker 2** (00:45:19) - Well, I, I had a, a co an interesting conversation with James last week about the, the journey and, um, James, I dunno if you, we were on about, um, what got you to the, the position or the role that you're in now and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I guess sort of hooking into, um, how do we make work and life a better place as well? You, you've already referenced, um, Peter as part of, you know, sort of a mentor and, you know, an inspiration. And I guess, you know, I'd like to delve in a little bit deeper on that, you know, what, how people have helped you along, along the journey and what, you know, what does, how does that help you?

**Speaker 3** (00:45:59) - Uh, well I think, so my first degree was in publishing, uh, and, uh, so that was back in, graduated in 1998. Uh, and I had absolutely zero career direction or, you know, ambition or anything. Um, so I was working in the bank, uh, and basically assessing mortgage applications. And, uh, it was just the, the head of the department said, look, I'm trying to set up, uh, some internal training teams. You're a big go bastar. Do you want to, uh, be part of that? Uh, and actually I was really flattered. I was like, um, oh, right, ok, great. Uh, so I did that for a bit and then, uh, an official job came up in the, the training and development team. So I applied for that and got it. Um, at a certain point I just realized, do you know what? I'm just, I can't get excited about interest only mortgages anymore. Uh, so <laugh>,

**Speaker 4** (00:47:00) - Why?

**Speaker 3** (00:47:01) - I know, I know, eh, got

**Speaker 4** (00:47:02) - Some, the irony that the interest had gone there wasn't placed on

**Speaker 3** (00:47:05) - Anyone. Exactly. Um, so I, a job came up at a company called Good Practice, a really small company that was based in a basement in Edinburgh. Um, and they were an online, uh, toolkit company. Uh, and the idea of, you know, working in a digital space was, was quite appealing as opposed to, but you know, the face to face space. So I got that job and that's where I met Peter, and there was another lady there called Joan, uh, who was my immediate boss, uh, you know, really challenged me. Um, you know, she was very opinionated, but in, in a good way. Uh, and I really saw, I could really feel a difference being made to me just through working with these two people. Um, and yeah, so I mean, just, just through that really, uh, you know, Peter had a lot of faith in me.

**Speaker 3** (00:47:52) - I mean, one of the things that Good practice were very clear on is that they didn't do e-learning. It was, you know, it was, it was, it was job and performance support toolkit stuff. Um, but I said, look, you know, we do have customers who are coming to us and saying, you know, I need an eLearning course. And we've always very clear, we said, no. I said, look, I'm, I'm not bad at graphics, I'm not, not bad at software. Um, if you put a bit of faith in me, I'll go off and learn, articulate storyline and what have you, and we can offer e-learning to customers, uh, and I'll, and he said, that's fine. So he gave the time to do that, and then I was able to hire a team of e-learning developers to work with me. So just through Peter having that faith in me, um, and given me the chance to, to succeed or fail, it worked out.

**Speaker 3** (00:48:40) - Um, you know, I built up this kinda, this part, a new part of the business, um, which, you know, is still doing really well. Um, you know, obviously I'm not with it anymore, but you know, it's, uh, a young lad for Garner is now the head of learning experience there. So some people who both come across Ross, um, you know, he basically took over my job when I left, and, and he's doing a great job, him and his team. Um, you know, I'm really, really proud. I look back at it, I'm really proud of them all. Uh, and again, we're all still in touch. Um, but yeah, they've, they've what I started, they've, they've taken that and they've really, really developed it. So, you know, I'd like to think that, you know, the way I speak of Peter, um, you know, Ross might speak of me a little bit, um, because, you know, he wasn't an e-learning developer, but, you know, I saw something in him.

**Speaker 3** (00:49:29) - I was like, you know, I think you would be good at this. Uh, even though you've been hired as a writer, I can see you've got other skills. Uh, and he's, yeah, he's, he's, he's, he's taken that role and done a, done a great job with it. So, yeah, I mean, as I said, I don't think any of us woke up one morning and said, you know, I wanna be an instructional designer. Um, you know, we just, I, I think like most people fell into it. Um, and, you know, I really love reading things like Moka Beans book, you know, the accidental structural designer. Cause you know, it's like, yeah, I recognize that the way that you just, you just fell into it is, you know, how we all did. Really. So, so, yeah, just very organically happened.

**Speaker 4** (00:50:05) - It's, it's really interesting, isn't it? And, and how sometimes you need someone to see a skill that you've got or you don't recognize necessarily you've got or don't recognize that maybe it's, it is transferrable. And when I, when I went to work for, for Keno, obviously, I went there and said, okay, well I do learning design. Cause that's what I was doing with McDonald's, pretty much. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And within about 10 minutes of the first interview, they said, oh, you need, you need to speak to Stu. And I said, well, Stu, I said, oh, he's, he's head of sales. Oh, I'm no salesperson. And they're like, oh, hold on. Just, just go and have this conversation. So I remember having that conversation and with Mark Harrison and the light back in the day, and him saying, now, hold on. So you've got experience of influence with that authority from all of your training stuff.

**Speaker 4** (00:50:44) - You've got influence of telling people what the understanding and listening to what they want. And you've got your solutions focused. You, you are the ideal salesperson for what we want. And I'm, in my head, I've done No, no, I'm not a salesperson. And I, and I, you're right, is, is people sort of spotting something and saying, actually, you know, you have got the skills to do that. And just from what you've said there, you said you've got, you know, you, you're not bad at graphics and, and you know, you, but I'm assuming you've got no formal training in that stuff. Is that just stuff that you were interested in? So, again, yeah. You know, you've picked that up very similar to myself, to be honest.

**Speaker 3** (00:51:12) - Yeah. I used to drive, uh, my, my team mentor cause I was Mr. One Pixel to the left or right, please, <laugh>. So, you know, I'd always be quite, um, annoyed where, yeah. Not annoyed, sorry, but Yeah. But I'd always pick up on the fight that you, that needs to be a one to the massive. Exactly. Yeah. Um, but it's fine. I've always got attention to detail when it comes to other people's work. I'm not quite sure when comes to own work. So when I read emails that I've sent and I thousands that are missing, misplaced you, I'm always the first to pick it up on someone else's work. So

**Speaker 4** (00:51:50) - Think quicker than you can type or speak. That's the problem. Why,

**Speaker 3** (00:51:53) - Uh, yeah. Yeah. A little bit like that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and cause I've got a Bluetooth keyboard as well, I always blame that. Cause I'll have a connection. Probably just dropped there. You know, that's <laugh>.

**Speaker 2** (00:52:02) - I like that. Yeah, that's a good one.

**Speaker 4** (00:52:04) - Oh, you know, you know, I'm making a note of that.

**Speaker 2** (00:52:08) - I, I was, um, I I was just thinking about that, the story about Peter as well, and giving you the, this opportunity, um, of whether it went well or not. Do you, do you think Peter's response would've been, um, vastly different if, if it hadn't have been a roar in success? Because I, I have a hangup about the word, you know, manager and leader mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and the inspiration that leaders bring to us.

**Speaker 3** (00:52:36) - Well, it's, it's, it's, there's, there's a bit more to that, that story. Sorry. Um, so I did, I, I, I left good practice for a little bit. Cause I point where there was no for me to go. Uh, and I figured, right, well, uh, you know, I've never worked in the public sector before. So, um, I, I think I'm gonna try something new. I've been, I think I've been at good practice for about five years at that point. Um, so I had a talk with Peter, uh, and my immediate boss, Owen Ferguson. So I guess some people might be, um, um, and we just kinda look, you know, something might happen one day's, nothing for Absolutely. It, uh, met some lovely people, uh, who I'm still in touch with, which is, that's the positive of it. Um, but I had a conversation with, with Peter and I said, look, you know, I has anything changed?

**Speaker 3** (00:53:38) - And they said, look, actually, there is now a different role for you. Uh, and, but Peter said, I'll, I'll only agree to take you back if you, uh, agree to be open to the possibility of managing people. And at that point, I was very definite. I didn't want manage people. Um, but I'd had such a horrible experience with a manager, um, at the, the public sector role that I said, you know what, you know, maybe I should be a people manager because I think I'd be quite a care. So I would, I think I might be quite good at it. And I said, Peter was very clear, you can only come back here if you agree to manage people at some point. Um, so again, that's some, that's goes back to that thing. Someone seeing something in you that you don't necessarily see in yourself.

**Speaker 3** (00:54:21) - Um, so, no, sorry to answer your, your question, Caleb. Um, no, I think Peter would've, if, if it didn't work, um, you know, I think he would've would've been of the mindset where at least we tried. Yeah. Um, you know, and, and now we know, uh, that, you know, we're not gonna do this. Or, uh, he's one of those guys. He, he always seems to take the, the, the lesson from it. Um, you know, so whether it's been a positive or a, or a negative experience, and luckily in this case, it, it was, it was very positive. I mean, we got some great customers, uh, you know, once we started to, you know, to actively sell this as a, as, as a solution that we, that we offered. Um, but yeah, no, I think, no, I think if I hadn't worked, I think, you know, I said Peter would've been very magnanimous and very practical about the whole thing. Yeah. Uh, so

**Speaker 2** (00:55:13) - I, I'd love, I mean, I'd love in another few years time that we're having conversations in businesses that, that, that people are more, um, open to a perception of it hasn't worked, but we've taken a lesson from this. Yeah. Because actually that's what stifles creativity is. Sure. You going, um, I'm not gonna push myself forward for this role or this project, or whatever it is. Because, you know, when you challenge people go, because I'm worried that it's not gonna go well, or the team is not gonna accept me. You, you're thinking about the negatives all the time. But if a leader was to say, it really doesn't matter, this is our desired outcome. If it goes a different way, then that's not a problem because we'll just adapt and we'll, you know, that's our new outcome. That's a success. You know, that's, that's almost the, the new way to look at it. So there's, there's no, you know, there's a perceived outcome, but we get a route two outcome that's still a success because we get some out that then most people will go, well, that sounds all right, then I'll put myself forward for that role or that, that project or whatever it is.

**Speaker 3** (00:56:16) - Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's,

**Speaker 4** (00:56:18) - It's a win or learn mentality, isn't it, really Need to

**Speaker 3** (00:56:21) - Get behind. Yes. It's a nice, a nice way of thinking of it. Yeah.

**Speaker 4** (00:56:24) - Yeah. I like that win. You're welcome.

**Speaker 3** (00:56:27) - <laugh>

**Speaker 5** (00:56:28) - <laugh>, you're

**Speaker 4** (00:56:30) - James. I, I know we're running a little long, but I, I'd I'd love to just pick your brains on, on one, one other thing if I may, which is how did you personally, how did you manage that transition from, you said about attention to detail? You said you liked designing things, you like to be involved, that's your background. When you then start managing people, how, how did you find sort of letting that go a little bit and taking the backseat and letting people make mistakes and not being able to jump in and do it yourself?

**Speaker 3** (00:56:54) - Um, I struggled with it a bit. Um, not struggle, that's the wrong word. Uh, I, I, you know, I think as anyone, if you're, if you're so used to doing it yourself, um, you know, you

**Speaker 4** (00:57:07) - Quickly Right? And you know the standard and you don't have to go back and Yeah.

**Speaker 3** (00:57:11) - Yeah. That, that, that can be quite challenging. Um, so I, how, how did I manage it? I'm, I'm not too sure. I'm honest with you. I think I, I am stopped very hands on, right? So, I mean, I, at the, uh, my current job, I still quality assured most of the storyboards and the videos and, and what have you. Now I am trying to let that go, uh, because I just don't have the time Yeah. To do it to the extent that, um, that, you know, I would perhaps want to do it. Um, so, you know, I have had conversations with, um, the managers and the team, and so these are my expectations as to what, and these are the things that I'm seeing, uh, that we need to need, I need you guys to be on top of. Um, and that's not doing them at all.

**Speaker 3** (00:57:58) - They're all very talented and they're all, you know, very committed to their jobs. But, you know, I, I do have certain standards that I expect to be maintained. So yes, I think it's just about being really clear about what excellence looks like. Um, and one of the things that I do try and not do is, is, is make comments on something that are personal preference. So I might flag something and say, write, I would rather it was this way. Um, but, you know, this is a democracy and there are other managers. So if you all feel that this is, uh, the best way of doing this, you know, this is just my preference. So I won't, you know, I won't, I won't I ask you to change it, but I'm just flagging out a different way. Um, so yeah, I think it's bit being quite clear on, as I said, being clear on what, what your standards of excellence are, um, <laugh>, that sounds incredibly, um, easy, but I guess those standards change from day to day, depending on what day you get me.

**Speaker 3** (00:58:57) - Uh, so, you know, but yeah, clarity, serious conversation with yourself and say you've chosen this life as a manager or a leader. Um, and you know, and it's not for everyone. And that's one thing I, I get asked quite a lot, uh, to, to, to speak to, to be maybe a mentor or, or a coach figure to some people. And I have had to say to some people, look, you know, if, if you want that manager life or you want that leadership life, you know, you have to ask certain questions of yourself. Cause it can be quite difficult. And, you know, and you have to make some difficult decisions, sometimes horrible decisions, you know, I mean, cause you know, impact people's livelihood and what have you. Um, so you know, it, it's definitely not for everyone, and you have to ask yourself quite seriously if it's the life that you, that you want.

**Speaker 3** (00:59:51) - Um, but in terms of, you know, uh, letting go of the day job, um, yeah, it, I have found that difficult at times. Uh, but, you know, one of the, the things that I've been asking myself recently is, is, or check, the check I've been checking myself recently is, are you helping the managers in your team by being so HandsOn, because actually you, I'm probably not, I'm probably a bit of a barrier, um, to, to, to them developing by being so hands on with stuff. And actually, that's one of the reasons why I left. Um, it was called Emerald Works Good practice. Emerald Works now called Mind Tools for Business. Um, is I felt like, you know, if I hang around any longer, um, there's nowhere for the managers and my team to go, uh, because I'm, I'm in the we. Uh, so I figured, you know what, and the opportunity came, came up to join Macal. I thought, well, you know what? I'm not getting any younger, you know, I might as well try something different. And I've never worked in hospitality before. So that was quite an interesting career change. Just sec, sorry, sector change. Sorry. Um, so, uh, the fact that it was, you know, it was at the start of lockdown and, you know, it was hospitality, a sector that was completely, you know, impacted by the pandemic. My husband went, are you even mad? I was,

**Speaker 4** (01:01:13) - I'm gonna joins currently on its knee.

**Speaker 3** (01:01:16) - Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, you've not met anybody because obviously all interview just, just got a good feeling about this. Um, you know, and, and I do feel that I should, I should, I should change. Uh,

**Speaker 2** (01:01:29) - So if you had some feedback from Ross to say thank God you went on because you were the ceiling <laugh>.

**Speaker 3** (01:01:36) - Uh, I think, well, I think Ross would say, uh, he was slightly nervous at first, uh, because, you know, it was, it was obviously, you know, I I was gonna say something incredibly cross there. I was big shoes to fill, uh, physically they definitely were. I'm six seven. Uh, but you know, I think, yeah, I mean, Ross was a little bit nervous, but I think, you know, but I knew I was leaving him with people like Owen and we had a new C e o, John Yates who used to, uh, then joined, uh, you know, emeralds. Um, so I knew you looked after, um, and I knew, I know, I knew you could do it. You know, he's a really talented, smart, smart guy. Uh, and, and, and he's thriving there, you know? Yeah. Uh, which is delight.

**Speaker 4** (01:02:39) - We, we need, we need to discuss this, um, poor tv, don't we? So, um, normally we chuck in a, you know, this is what we recommend, but it was already alluded to, you know, just ignore whatever James says for the next 30 seconds. But why don't you start,

**Speaker 3** (01:02:53) - Um, well context to this, right? I, I, uh, it was, it was it last, last week. And you know, I I, I, I do have good taste when it comes to movies and TV and my right. Uh, but sometimes you just want just watch something mindless and and shit. Uh, and it's been a bit of a tough couple of weeks in my family. My mother-in-laws been very ill in my, uh, my husband has been backed down in Birmingham, uh, to be with the family while she's been in hospital. And, you know, uh, luckily she's start be to be on the men, which is great. But yeah, I was kinda, um, I was home alone for the last couple of weeks. Uh, and yeah, I was just watching watch everything everywhere all at once. And it's just kinda, I, I just need to be in the mood for it. Um, I just want something to really mindless to watch and it just so reruns and was exactly what I needed. Just something really, and, and mindless just to sit and watch. Um, I won't be making a habit of it. Uh, but it's <laugh> Yeah, it was, it was, it was the medicine I needed at that point.

**Speaker 4** (01:04:09) - Fair enough, fair enough. There

**Speaker 3** (01:04:11) - You,

**Speaker 2** (01:04:14) - Well, I'm sorry to create that as the thread of the whole

**Speaker 3** (01:04:19) - Podcast. Fuck,

**Speaker 2** (01:04:21) - I, I got, um, so when we were having a chat last week, I sort of got that I understood that I, um, I have since started watching everything. Um, and I, I get, uh, James, you've just gotta be focused on that cuz it's, it, it started off, I haven't watched it all. I'm about 20 minutes in and it is a bit mad and you've got a focus on it. Yeah.

**Speaker 3** (01:04:44) - Is

**Speaker 4** (01:04:44) - It all set in different, it's it's all to do with different, it's a metaverse thing, isn't it? And they different timelines and art. Yeah. Someone tried to explain it to me, it went right over my head.

**Speaker 3** (01:04:56) - I dunno. I I, we've, we were trying to watch all the Oscar nominated films before the Oscars happened and, and that was the one that we just kept stumbling over, was was, was the one that it, that winning came up pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I dunno, I just, ill, we definitely will watch it. Cause I'm sure it love Lee Curtis, you know, know there's, there's no reason not to watch it other than fact that this, uh, yeah. We'll, but a priority for, to this point.

**Speaker 4** (01:05:37) - If, if you're looking for something else, there's one to add to your list. We've been watching, um, liaison, which is on Apple TV plus, uh, so French language, um, which, you know, I know that might, that may put people off, but, but please don't because it's is, you see it more and more of this now where it's, it's actually mixed languages. So there's French is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so it's basically you have subtitles on and, and, and that's absolutely cool and that works really well. But, um, so Eva Green, um, really nice thriller. The effects are amazing. You know, when you watch some things now and you think if this was on it v it'd look a bit low rent, but because it's got Apple's money behind it, or it's got Netflix money behind it, you think the, the effects on something that is just basically a, an half hour, a 45 minute long episode. It just on a different level. So Oh,

**Speaker 3** (01:06:27) - Right,

**Speaker 4** (01:06:27) - Okay. One, one drops every week. Um, which I do, you know what, in some ways I'm actually quite liking that because we know they come on a Friday and it, we don't watch a great deal of tv, but it's really nice when my wife says, oh, is it Liaison tonight? Cause it's on the Friday, and you think, yeah, do you know what, we're gonna sit down and watch it. You haven't got the advert, you've, you, if it was, if it was on Netflix, we'll be binge it probably, but it's actually quite nice to go, oh yeah, we've got that. Um, so yeah, strongly recommended, really, really enjoying that. Um, I don't think we've got many left now, but, um, just

**Speaker 3** (01:06:55) - Stop just on the mixed language too much. But I do have a recommendation for a film that I watched recently. Um, it's called Speak No Evil. Um, it is the most disturbing thing I have seen for an awful long time. Uh, so it's, um, it's about, uh, Danish couple, uh, they go on holiday to Tuscany, uh, or Sicily, sorry, Tuscany, sorry. Yeah, go Tuscan. Uh, and then they meet a Danish couple and they get on well, and then months later, the Danish couple invites the, the Dutch couple to come and stay with them in their house in the countryside. Um, and let's just say it was the biggest mistake of their lives. Uh, so it's just one of those movies, it's almost like it starts off like a black social Yeah. But it just becomes more and more skin crawling as it goes on. Uh, and yeah, I mean, it is, it's truly disturbing and I've recommended it a few people and if anyone who's watched it said, I can't believe you recommended that to me. It's like, well, you know, uh, I you'll always remember it. Um, so it's on, it's on Shutter. Uh, so I, um, took it a free trial just cause this film was, was, was where would thoroughly well cautiously recommend it. Yeah. <laugh>. Um, yeah, if you're looking for a light, a light viewings, definitely not, uh, not for that. But, uh, yeah, it, it's definitely what watching.

**Speaker 4** (01:08:25) - Fantastic. There you go. You've have you, what about yourself ke what you've been watching?

**Speaker 2** (01:08:31) - Well, watching, uh, and I've mentioned this to uh, James the other day. I've been watching the, the Luther Series on BBC again. Yep. Um, cuz I wanted to watch a movie and I, there was no need to watch the series in order to build me up for the movie, but I had you

**Speaker 4** (01:08:48) - Not watch the series before?

**Speaker 2** (01:08:49) - Sorry, say it again. Had

**Speaker 4** (01:08:50) - You not watch the series before? Were you watching

**Speaker 2** (01:08:52) - Him again? Yes, yes. I was watching it again, but Right. Um, you know, it's been a long time, so thoroughly enjoyed, uh, watching Luther again. Um, I, I know that you actually quite like the film Luther. I was quite disappointed with it, if I'm honest. And it, I said to James last week, I just did not get where you can leave Dover and then end up in Saudi

**Speaker 3** (01:09:17) - Area

**Speaker 2** (01:09:18) - <laugh>. Um, but that, that totally confused me in the

**Speaker 4** (01:09:22) - Film. You know, we've watched it again, we've watched it a cinema Right. Which was a nice experience and we've watched it again on Netflix and there's one bit at the end, and this is, I know this is me, my attention. You talk about attention to detail, the bit that drove me nuts. We're seeing a Land Rover defender spinning its rear tires because it can't get grip and you think it's a Land Rover, it's put

**Speaker 3** (01:09:41) - It <laugh>,

**Speaker 4** (01:09:42) - It's wheel drive for goodness sake. Why is just spinning its rear tires? What's that all about? It was absolutely bonkers. Yeah. It felt a bit James Bond at the end to me, almost like they were setting it just el up to be the new James Bond. Oh,

**Speaker 3** (01:09:53) - Of course, yes. Yeah, yeah,

**Speaker 4** (01:09:54) - Yeah. It really felt like that.

**Speaker 2** (01:09:56) - I thought if there was ever a reason to stick with, um, the good old B bbc, then they've just proved it there rather than selling out to Netflix. But, um, my, um, I wasn't actually gonna just talk about, um, what I'd watched, but it was more what's on our playlist as well. I cannot recommend Mid Journey, which is an ai, um, generative image tool. Enough. Actually I would, I'm just obsessed with it the minute. And what you find is, rather than using dropdowns and um, different options, you're having to learn these new prompts in Mid Journey to craft an amazing image, which have to say, if you learn all those prompts, it then makes an understanding of Adobe Firefly even easier and to understand. But I can't recommend that enough. As I say, it's my new obsession creating a random image on Mid Journey.

**Speaker 3** (01:10:50) - Mid

**Speaker 4** (01:10:52) - Yeah, mid Journey. I, I do, you know what I, the Firefly stuff I've seen enough to, I'm absolutely jumping a bit to see it embedded within Photoshop and see it embedded within Illustrator and I, I was watching a, a demo using Firefly, and I know FIREFLYs, I mean, it's got some lovely text effects, which I really like. And, um, you know, know some of the images it's created are just, it's stunning. Yeah. But being able to take one of my photos and be able to draw a squiggly blue line in it and say, and then write click and say, yeah, get Firefly to make that into a river. And it's just, ah, if you've seen any of those demos, it's mind-blowingly good. Really, really impressive stuff.

**Speaker 2** (01:11:29) - I, I think, um, mid Journey is a slightly, um,

**Speaker 2** (01:11:35) - There's a bit of a steep learning curve on it, I think, and you need, um, discord to use Mid Journey. But honestly, if you, if I can do it like then, you know, most people can, but that's my recommendation on my playlist this month. Um, I, I think we're, you know, I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today and Oh, me too. You know, just based on our time, we've, we can see that we've, um, had lots to talk about. So I, I, you know, I think we are probably at the end of our podcast, but, you know, I'd say thanks James so much for joining us and agreeing to talk, um, you know, with us too and the, the, uh, incessant ramble that we come out with

**Speaker 3** (01:12:19) - <laugh> <laugh>. No,

**Speaker 4** (01:12:21) - Thank you for your open and honest answers James as well. It's been really, it's been fascinating to, to, to get an insight, so thank you so much.

**Speaker 3** (01:12:28) - No, thank you for asking. Again, it was very, I was very flat to be asked and I've, I've thoroughly enjoyed myself this morning, so thank, thank you very much.

**Speaker 4** (01:12:34) - Trouble is all robot. Go back to work now.

**Speaker 3** (01:12:36) - I know. God. Yeah. <laugh>.

**Speaker 4** (01:12:40) - James, if people want to grab, get ahold of you, where, where, where can they do that?

**Speaker 3** (01:12:43) - Uh, yeah, Twitter's probably the easiest. Uh, so it's at James McLuckie, uh, all altogether. Uh, or if wants to connect with me on LinkedIn, um, you know, generally I click, I'm usually the one that pops up first. Uh, if you put in James mcl, um, yeah, very happy to connect to anybody who's, who's interested in connecting. So just, uh, either send me a tweet or, uh, or send me a follow on LinkedIn.

**Speaker 4** (01:13:06) - Brilliant. Thank you.

**Speaker 2** (01:13:08) - Well, all that leaves us to do is say thanks for listening. We really hope you enjoyed the conversation. And as always, if you wanna drop us the line or discuss anything specific further, please do so.